BF2S Forums Religions of the world Thread

uziq wrote:

oppressive by whose measure? yours? the western liberal democratic norm is not universal, macbeth. many peoples’ value systems do not align with ours. you seem to think wearing bikinis is the highest desirable good.

By everyone's measure. Women in even China/Japan/Brazil/Russia/Mexico live freer lives than women living in the vast majority of Muslim countries. We have been over this many times before the last few pages so I already know your response is going to be about how Poland/Philippines/China/Japan/Brazil/Russia/Mexico are actually complete oppressive shitholes rather than acknowledging the legion of issues in the Islamic world.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2020-11-14 11:57:11)

The social makeup of those societies is the result of their religious beliefs. You can't separate the two. From the earliest days of Islam the public practices of those people was problematic for the Arab Christian/Pagan/Jewish tribes of Israel that expelled and waged war on them. Do you really want to compare the role of women in Cleopatra's Egypt and Ottoman Egypt?

Not too long ago it was perfectly understandable by local norms for American cops to feel up women at the beach to make sure their swimsuits weren't a half an inch too short too. Amazing how things can change and evolve over time isn't it? This isn't a whataboutism intended to excuse honor killings among bumpkins. It's an example of how the struggle for women's rights took place outside the narrow focus of the islamophobic.

If it was just the religion then why aren't all Christians alike?

I dare you to go have a philosophical debate with a catholic priest.

Especially figuratively, I imagine.

Anyway, I know it's easy plucking anecdotes from social media, but isn't the perfect equality of the modern female business/corporate experience amazing?

Apparently my ideas are dumb and they just keep me around because I’m, “pretty”.  Even my boss laughed at me. It was extremely humiliating...

This isn't even an unusual story.

I find it funny that people here are like "uziq, ken, etc. are defending Islam by deflecting to western issues!" It's just so silly when someone is so focused on events halfway across the planet that they're completely oblivious to their own pressing societal issues.

"Suck it up, Barbara, a woman was stoned to death in Saudi Arabia." Nobody here is saying that's acceptable.

Press for reform in the Islamic world has to make it through the barrier of religious hardliners. Something that thankfully we have less of an issue with stateside, but still an inkling of with religious (Christian) influence over the government.

I would prefer limited religious influence over government and policy controlling other people's lives, period. Would you rather be governed by a hyperreligious Muslim crank, a hyperreligious Christian crank, or an alternative?

I imagine a good portion of the moderate Christian vote went to Biden: the guy who isn't the nutter-proclaimed messiah.

It's quite silly to keep yammering on about how the "rest of the world" needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, from the platform of a country with its own ignored problems and participations in conflicts that have destabilized developing regions. Whose example should they follow then?

It also comes off as boisterously arrogant. Is it any wonder why an Iranian would turn his nose up at western opinion?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Would you prefer islamic influence over govt?

Thats where this will finish up.

“shariah law is coming to your neighbourhood” is honestly one of the most fucking stupid tropes of the entire islamophobic right-wing. really, dilbert? a religious law is going to be forced upon the inhabitants of a democracy whose legal systems and institutions have been stable for thousands of years?

tell me more about how the judiciary and legislative of the U.K. are going to crumble and leave britons exposed because of ‘muslamic shariah law’.

so fucking stupid it’s unbelievable.

i'm sure some improperly trained and hopeless PC plod on the streets is really symptomatic of a society-wide decline. police misinterpret common public orders and legislation all the time. it's easily challenged and easily dismissed. there is no law banning women from walking on a pavement next to a mosque. you will not find it.

your rhetoric is just total and utter claptrap.

so one video in the UK and 3 men walking around making a nuisance of themselves is 'shariah law is coming to the UK'. do you know how the UK's legal institutions work? how would 3 men in east london impose their law on anyone, exactly? remind me? a simple 'fuck off' will suffice.

is that representative of an entire religion?

from the very video you link: "the vast majority of muslims living in this part of east london want NOTHING to do with these vigilantes".

you seem to have serious cognitive issues.

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-15 02:28:39)

yes, they were. it was official state-directed policy. 3 'vigilantes' making a nuisance of themselves in a neighbourhood is not the same thing as state-sanctioned force or official law, dilbert.

shariah law is not 'coming to europe'. europe has robust legal institutions. european states have their own police forces. these men have no ability to enact their laws or regulations upon anyone. zero. in fact, they could be arrested themselves for harassment or a public order offense. the state is not sponsoring their morality. people are not being coerced to behave as they see fit.

it's a total non-story, interesting only insofar as it draws a light to very disaffected youths in a community.

it's really quite amazing just where your sympathies and biases lie, dilbert. trying to make out that the death camps were a niche or wayward faction of the nazis, some rogue element or extremist fringe, not at all representative of a regime that murdered 6 million+ people. but 3 people walking around hackney telling people to cover up their clothing? that is DEFINITELY indicative of 1.8 billion people's attitudes!

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-15 02:48:14)

uziq wrote:

yit's really quite amazing just where your sympathies and biases lie, dilbert. trying to make out that the death camps were a niche or wayward faction of the nazis, some rogue element or extremist fringe, not at all representative of a regime that murdered 6 million+ people. but 3 people walking around hackney telling people to cover up their clothing? that is DEFINITELY indicative of 1.8 billion people's attitudes!

Do you think every German who signed up for the Nazis knew what form the final solution would take? The architects of the final solution didn't know at the start of the war.
Did every 'moderate german' sit by and do nothing as the extremists ran wild? Of course they did, no other population behaves any different.

We've seen in many places once muslims or any other religious group reaches critical mass the extremists take over and the 'moderates' do nothing.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-11-15 04:50:49)

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

yit's really quite amazing just where your sympathies and biases lie, dilbert. trying to make out that the death camps were a niche or wayward faction of the nazis, some rogue element or extremist fringe, not at all representative of a regime that murdered 6 million+ people. but 3 people walking around hackney telling people to cover up their clothing? that is DEFINITELY indicative of 1.8 billion people's attitudes!

Do you think every German who signed up for the Nazis knew what form the final solution would take? The architects of the final solution didn't know at the start of the war.
Did every 'moderate german' sit by and do nothing as the extremists ran wild? Of course they did, no other population behaves any different.

We've seen in many places once muslims or any other religious group reaches critical mass the extremists take over and the 'moderates' do nothing.

nazi germany was officially anti-semitic. the streets were full of signs and banners with anti-semitic rhetoric. shop windows were smashed or boarded up. jews were harangued and chased out of town. the regime was full of propaganda about aryan supremacy, about the german volk/'true' germans, about the pernicious influence of jews, socialists, degenerates, etc. it was OFFICIAL government policy and part of the political culture.

did everyone know the in and outs of the final solution? obviously not, for intelligence and security reasons alone. but the point was the final solution WAS official government policy, directed by nazi officials at the very top level and enforced all the way through the party power structure and military hierarchy.

3 men walking around east london trying to enforce their own private moral code on the rest of the citizens is NOT the fucking same thing.