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uziq
Member
+470|2832
larssen sounds like the CCP who talk constantly about the 'foreigners' in their country who are 'anti-nationalists' and 'in the pay of the CIA'.

there are extremist cells, of course, and preachers who preach hate. these should be dealt with by counter-terrorism forces. there is a system of religious education, madrasas and so forth, in saudi arabia or pakistan, that preach fundamentalist and hateful ideologies. there is no place for that in a western democracy.

but what the hell is 'home country influence' and why is that so undesirable? i take it if he moved abroad for a few years to work in policy or finance that he'd cut all ties with his home country, its educational systems, its institutions, etc.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+575|3099

uziq wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

uziq wrote:

i'm hardly weeping for the french luxury handbags or cosmetics firms, or whatever. but that's gross national income being smacked at a time of widespread economic recession, if not oncoming depression. not the smartest move or most proportionate move.

i know you don't care about this issue but you seem to delight in a 'clash of civilizations', confused on the point of reality somewhere between crusader kings and magic the gathering. i think it's probably better if the west and moderate islamic nations grow closer through, for example, trade and commerce, rather than grow further apart. haven't you said yourself elsewhere that people who agitate for wars are stupid fantasists? i'm sure you'll be up front in the volunteer catholic regiments to take fire.
There are no moderate Islamic countries. How many Islamic countries allow LGBT people to live open lives? How many allow Christian missionaries to convert their people? How many are cool with western feminism?
by that count america can hardly be seen as ‘moderate’. you just appointed a supreme court judge who is going to make getting abortions difficult. your executive make noises about trans people. so what?

about a quarter of the world are muslim. put another way, how many are extremists or fundamentalists?

you don’t make concerned noises about christian countries like poland banning abortion. you don’t plea for the lives of homosexuals in african christian nations. why aren’t you alarmed about the rise of hardline theocratic influence in these nations? oh wait, i forgot that you were roleplaying as a paladin.
I wouldn't want to live in Poland or Central Africa either. But Muslims in Poland have more rights than Christians do in probably any Muslim country. Gay people wouldn't have a good time in Eastern Europe but being LGBT is literally a death sentence in most of the Middle East.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+470|2832
it's literally a death sentence in christian africa, too.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+575|3099

uziq wrote:

it's literally a death sentence in christian africa, too.
Well that's the blacks for you.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+93|1267
To be clear I'm talking about foreign governments promoting nationalism and nationalist/restrictive Islam among a minority in the hundreds of thousands. They also pressure second, third etc. generation emigrants into mandatory military service 'at home' or have their citizenship revoked. Please tell me how you're going to have positive relations with an immigrant community if the 'home country' of said immigrants is actively trying to undermine cohesion by pushing nationalist identification. If you have the grandkids of people who came from the Middle East still primarily identifying with that nationality rather than with the country in which they're born, that's a serious issue.

Of course you can go on the attack against immigration policies here as well, but I really don't understand why you'd be blind to obvious influencing operations from foreign governments. Why do you think they invest so much money & effort into connections with their emigrant populations? Out of the goodness of their hearts?
uziq
Member
+470|2832
can you give specific examples? i'm not aware of any large muslim commuity in the UK who are being pressured to go and do military service in another country.
Larssen
Member
+93|1267
It is literally Turkish law, and they fight tooth and nail to preserve it. As far as I'm aware there's similar arrangements in other countries in the ME wrt dual citizenship. The military being a historical vehicle for nationalism doesn't quite help.

Then there's governments like Eritrea which go door to door to known emigrants to demand 'voluntary' donations. Or nationalist religious organisations like Diyanet funding mosques, training Imams etc in Germany, Belgium, Holland.

I see these and many other examples as obvious attempts to maintain grip on emigrant populations.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+575|3099
Muslims have low per capita enrollment in America's armed forces. I assume European countries have the same issue.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+470|2832

Larssen wrote:

It is literally Turkish law, and they fight tooth and nail to preserve it. As far as I'm aware there's similar arrangements in other countries in the ME wrt dual citizenship. The military being a historical vehicle for nationalism doesn't quite help.

Then there's governments like Eritrea which go door to door to known emigrants to demand 'voluntary' donations. Or nationalist religious organisations like Diyanet funding mosques, training Imams etc in Germany, Belgium, Holland.

I see these and many other examples as obvious attempts to maintain grip on emigrant populations.
turkey a 'middle-eastern' nation? promoting an extremist and destabilizing version of islam? are you sure about that? wasn't turkey and its armed forces literally set-up to be secular? kemalism emphasizes precisely its secularity.

also, there are 450,000 turks in the UK. so, being generous, 250,000 turkish men, of all ages, let alone of active military service.

sorry but please get a better example.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6072
Let’s not ignore Israel’s attempts to recruit young Jews from around the world to join the IDF through birth rite.
uziq
Member
+470|2832
if you want to argue about conflicting national interest with dual-citizenship turks and israelis, go ahead. but don't construe it as 'a terror threat' or part of a vague threat from 'islamism'. they are notionally secular militaries. no shit they promote nationalism. do you expect a military to be internationalist?

larssen: the EU is the greatest invention of all time, a secular internationalist organization in which many nationalities coexist peacefully.
also larssen: shit! these people have dual alliances to more than one entity! watch out guys! they're both turkish AND german! how can anyone accommodate that in one identity!

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-27 06:26:10)

Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6072

uziq wrote:

if you want to argue about conflicting national interest with dual-citizenship turks and israelis, go ahead. but don't construe it as 'a terror threat' or part of a vague threat from 'islamism'. they are notionally secular militaries. no shit they promote nationalism. do you expect a military to be internationalist?

larssen: the EU is the greatest invention of all time, a secular internationalist organization in which many nationalities coexist peacefully.
also larssen: shit! these people have dual alliances to more than one entity! watch out guys! they're both turkish AND dutch!
There’s a case to made for Europeans being recruited into ISIS. But when was the last time a Muslim state military actually posed a real danger to the west besides through clandestine terror funding?

Last edited by Superior Mind (2020-10-27 06:29:00)

uziq
Member
+470|2832
definitely, a tiny minority of people were led off into the ISIS thing, largely by online sources and effectively by being groomed into it. we had several large national-level furores about that: teenage girls running off to syria without even telling their parents, etc, to become brides of the revolution or whatever. a serious problem, to be sure, but is that representative of muslims generally? absolutely not. it shocked their parents, let alone the national community.

a fair few white people went off to fight for ISIS or the peshmurga or whatever, too, by the by. it's a weird side-effect of the everything-connected internet reality we are living in. people with no ties to islam can radicalize themselves and go off on a great adventure in the middle-east. a lot of lost and confused individuals mixed up in that.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6072

uziq wrote:

definitely, a tiny minority of people were led off into the ISIS thing, largely by online sources and effectively by being groomed into it. we had several large national-level furores about that: teenage girls running off to syria without even telling their parents, etc, to become brides of the revolution or whatever. a serious problem, to be sure, but is that representative of muslims generally? absolutely not. it shocked their parents, let alone the national community.

a fair few white people went off to fight for ISIS or the peshmurga or whatever, too, by the by. it's a weird side-effect of the everything-connected internet reality we are living in. people with no ties to islam can radicalize themselves and go off on a great adventure in the middle-east. a lot of lost and confused individuals mixed up in that.
There’s are those select few neck-beards with too high of an ambition to settle for shooting up a school or movie theater.
Larssen
Member
+93|1267
Yeah that secularism has been well and truly banished to the past by Erdogan. Diyanet is also a government controlled religious organisation.

Except for Istanbul and rich western coastal towns much of turkey is certainly religiously conservative and middle east oriented. You seem to have this cosmopolitan modern constantinople view of the country that drove the EU accession debate, well those guys haven't been in power for 20 years now. In germany & the low countries Erdogan and his government is a huge part of the integration debate. Why are all the Turks here voting for an oppressive PoS back home that makes a sport of insulting Europe / European leaders? Why do many third generation Turkish immigrants still insist that they're Turks first and foremost?

It's BS that you're preaching acceptance and accomodation, anti-nationalism on one hand when talking about European governments, but turn a blind eye when minority groups engage in the same othering & ethnic pride behaviour, backed up by fiercely nationalist foreign governments. If you truly want a secular, equal, non-nationalist society, do it right and dismantle these tendencies in all groups.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6072
The same can be said of Chinese immigrant communities world wide. They strongly enforce a sense of cultural devotion many generations down the line - but it lacks one key ingredient to piss off the masses - scary religion.
uziq
Member
+470|2832

Larssen wrote:

Yeah that secularism has been well and truly banished to the past by Erdogan. Diyanet is also a government controlled religious organisation.

Except for Istanbul and rich western coastal towns much of turkey is certainly religiously conservative and middle east oriented. You seem to have this cosmopolitan modern constantinople view of the country that drove the EU accession debate, well those guys haven't been in power for 20 years now. In germany & the low countries Erdogan and his government is a huge part of the integration debate. Why are all the Turks here voting for an oppressive PoS back home that makes a sport of insulting Europe / European leaders? Why do many third generation Turkish immigrants still insist that they're Turks first and foremost?

It's BS that you're preaching acceptance and accomodation, anti-nationalism on one hand when talking about European governments, but turn a blind eye when minority groups engage in the same othering & ethnic pride behaviour, backed up by fiercely nationalist foreign governments. If you truly want a secular, equal, non-nationalist society, do it right and dismantle these tendencies in all groups.
turks are free to assert that they're 'turks first and foremost'. that's kind of the point of secularism and democracy, isn't it? a plurality of identity coexisting within a national unit? why do you want them to renounce their ethnic identities and become 'germans first and foremost'? would that make any meaningful difference to their values or politics, individually or as a bloc?
Larssen
Member
+93|1267

Superior Mind wrote:

The same can be said of Chinese immigrant communities world wide. They strongly enforce a sense of cultural devotion many generations down the line - but it lacks one key ingredient to piss off the masses - scary religion.
Don't forget a 20 year history of terror attacks, the 'small minority' of several thousands that joined ISIS etc.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,987|6151|USA

uziq wrote:

larssen sounds like the CCP who talk constantly about the 'foreigners' in their country who are 'anti-nationalists' and 'in the pay of the CIA'.

there are extremist cells, of course, and preachers who preach hate. these should be dealt with by counter-terrorism forces. there is a system of religious education, madrasas and so forth, in saudi arabia or pakistan, that preach fundamentalist and hateful ideologies. there is no place for that in a western democracy.

but what the hell is 'home country influence' and why is that so undesirable? i take it if he moved abroad for a few years to work in policy or finance that he'd cut all ties with his home country, its educational systems, its institutions, etc.
Dilbert (himself a migrant?) needs to be cut off from home country influence lest he corrupt Australia with tea leaves and Clockwork Orange ultra-violence.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6072
Not forgetting, believe me. Maybe I’m an idealist but I think that understanding goes much further than prosecution. My living reality is that I’ve lived peacefully alongside Muslims my whole life. I see the problem as emanating from our shady foreign policies that give resources to the ideological head of the monster that wants us dead.

Last edited by Superior Mind (2020-10-27 06:47:43)

uziq
Member
+470|2832
the solution to extremism and radicalization is to make all moderate muslims feel as though they have uniquely failed to integrate, and to regard them with suspicion for not wanting to forget their home countries or roots.

that'll certainly do it. why do you still take an interest in turkey, traitorous wretch? you've been in germany since the 1980s!

brb we're just off to use our technocratic brains to invade another country and depose another dictator, leaving behind a power vacuum. aren't our eurofighter jets impressive!

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-27 06:51:38)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,987|6151|USA

People needing to cut themselves off from their home country/culture/whatever sounds like the same thing you'd hear from an outspoken American bigot bristling at the Spanish music at a Mexican restaurant.
Larssen
Member
+93|1267

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Yeah that secularism has been well and truly banished to the past by Erdogan. Diyanet is also a government controlled religious organisation.

Except for Istanbul and rich western coastal towns much of turkey is certainly religiously conservative and middle east oriented. You seem to have this cosmopolitan modern constantinople view of the country that drove the EU accession debate, well those guys haven't been in power for 20 years now. In germany & the low countries Erdogan and his government is a huge part of the integration debate. Why are all the Turks here voting for an oppressive PoS back home that makes a sport of insulting Europe / European leaders? Why do many third generation Turkish immigrants still insist that they're Turks first and foremost?

It's BS that you're preaching acceptance and accomodation, anti-nationalism on one hand when talking about European governments, but turn a blind eye when minority groups engage in the same othering & ethnic pride behaviour, backed up by fiercely nationalist foreign governments. If you truly want a secular, equal, non-nationalist society, do it right and dismantle these tendencies in all groups.
turks are free to assert that they're 'turks first and foremost'. that's kind of the point of secularism and democracy, isn't it? a plurality of identity coexisting within a national unit? why do you want them to renounce their ethnic identities and become 'germans first and foremost'? would that make any meaningful difference to their values or politics, individually or as a bloc?
Yeah nothing could ever go wrong by letting an enclave of religious-nationalists form in your country. Especially if that country is increasingly politically at odds with your own. Not an issue at all.

It's absolutely bizarre to me that you gloss over the notion that the toxic nationalism of Erdogan and his cronies could be problematic to Europe. Values of secularism, democracy, anti nationalism are all great but if someone who doesn't give a toss about any of these things comes to the fore, what do you do in response?
uziq
Member
+470|2832
larssen: the problem is that radical islam is gaining a foothold everywhere.
the EU: we must depose gaddifi and leave libya as a failed state.

but the real problem is secular turks going back for 2 years of military service. turkey, that rogue hardline islamist state.
uziq
Member
+470|2832

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Yeah that secularism has been well and truly banished to the past by Erdogan. Diyanet is also a government controlled religious organisation.

Except for Istanbul and rich western coastal towns much of turkey is certainly religiously conservative and middle east oriented. You seem to have this cosmopolitan modern constantinople view of the country that drove the EU accession debate, well those guys haven't been in power for 20 years now. In germany & the low countries Erdogan and his government is a huge part of the integration debate. Why are all the Turks here voting for an oppressive PoS back home that makes a sport of insulting Europe / European leaders? Why do many third generation Turkish immigrants still insist that they're Turks first and foremost?

It's BS that you're preaching acceptance and accomodation, anti-nationalism on one hand when talking about European governments, but turn a blind eye when minority groups engage in the same othering & ethnic pride behaviour, backed up by fiercely nationalist foreign governments. If you truly want a secular, equal, non-nationalist society, do it right and dismantle these tendencies in all groups.
turks are free to assert that they're 'turks first and foremost'. that's kind of the point of secularism and democracy, isn't it? a plurality of identity coexisting within a national unit? why do you want them to renounce their ethnic identities and become 'germans first and foremost'? would that make any meaningful difference to their values or politics, individually or as a bloc?
Yeah nothing could ever go wrong by letting an enclave of religious-nationalists form in your country. Especially if that country is increasingly politically at odds with your own. Not an issue at all.

It's absolutely bizarre to me that you gloss over the notion that the toxic nationalism of Erdogan and his cronies could be problematic to Europe. Values of secularism, democracy, anti nationalism are all great but if someone who doesn't give a toss about any of these things comes to the fore, what do you do in response?
the turks as 'religious-nationalists'? lol ok. we're not talking about salafism here.

the EU openly tolerates 'toxic nationalism' within ITS OWN MEMBERS. hello? hungary? poland? any number of other vocal actors in the netherlands, denmark, france, germany, etc? why is turkey under erdogan a big scary 'religious-nationalist' bloc but poland under duda isn't?

if the EU was threatening to kick poland out for its intransigence and illiberalism, you'd maybe have a point. and cynical right-wing politicians like erdogan know it, too, which gives them wiggle-room to be as devious as they like.

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-27 07:03:32)

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