I think, shahter, we actually might sort of agree here. Without the condescending derision towards minorities though.
Last edited by Larssen (2020-08-06 08:30:25)
the police in many jurisdictions and cities are culpably, institutionally racist. yes, the police should take the hit in many cases and localities. it is an issue that requires context and particularity, detail and nuance, not a one-size-fits-all strategy.Shahter wrote:
so, it's the police that should take a hit. /facepalmuziq wrote:
they have an ENTIRE PROGRAMME of suggestions for defunding the police and diverting the funds into community engagement, social welfare, education, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police
these people have no idea where their problems are coming from - not in the slightest.
police violence, murder, systematic collusion and covering up of evidence, quiet dropping of cases, placing offending officers on weak probation and quietly letting them rejoin the force later, etc. are blights on any police. they can be reformed. some police departments really do need to be disbanded and start over, or have serious personnel changes; like any business or organization, a culture has taken root in many places which is far removed from the 'serve and protect' ethos of police. whether it's target-driven culture or examples of actual embedded racism, things need to be addressed and fixed, and fixed quickly.
american society in general has become extremely militarized and penal since the iraq-afghan wars. police departments have received huge amounts of slush funding and hand-down materiel. if you give police forces the APCs, tear gas, assault rifles and latest military gadgets, they are going to find excuses to use them.
american society, furthermore, has a giant industry of private prisons. incarceration is an industry in america. it has a higher proportion of its adult population in jail than almost anywhere else in the free world. there are all sorts of commercial/corporate incentives in keeping people imprisoned. there are many legal doctrines and policies, some decades old, which are excessively punitive and target certain communities. far too many black men lose their lives to prison and the endless cycle of low-level street crime, incarceration, recidivism, etc. this is a very bad picture and the only people whom it really benefits are the giant conglomerates behind private prisons. nobody else benefits from classing a 19-year-old as a felon and discarding them to a life of criminality, outside civil society.
'defunding' the police is all about using america's vast public wealth and resources in a better way. it is not about making 'enemy no. 1' of the police. it's merely a statement that american society invests far too much of its wealth in the military, in the police, and as a result a strange, antagonistic, violent caste of faux-military police forces have been allowed to develop. people with poor training and delusions of being special forces. lots of innocent civilians are dying -- not even low-level criminals, but innocent americans. it is wrong. if even a slice of that money (so the thinking goes) was invested in better education, better social care, better mental health provision, etc. then criminality could be tackled more constructively and to the benefit of all.
i have to say, shahter, your 'the problem is capitalism, fools!' talk is completely fucking simplistic and unhelpful. people are trying to alleviate their suffering and reform their communities. constantly winking and smirking and saying 'the only solution is to overthrow capitalism and instate a socialist world order' is NOT fucking helpful. get out of the intellectual sand-pit and join the adult conversation. the civil rights movement have KNOWN that economics and class struggle is at the root of structural inequality, systemic racism, police/state brutality, etc. since at least MLK's day. the fucking black panthers and black militant movements, e.g. malcolm x, were right there with the soviet union, castro/che, etc. you are not in possession of some 'higher' knowledge here. jesus christ. trying to reform the police is a more achievable short-term goal than communist utopia, dipshit.
Last edited by uziq (2020-08-06 08:58:13)
it's not the police that are racist - it's the society. police is not the problem - it's just one of the ways the problem manifests. you would be fixing precisely nothing by defunding the police.
you know what would happen if these blm idiots got their way? many of the decent people - those you'd actually want to protect you - would feel betrayed and leave. and those, who would use their positions of power in the police to further their own ways would just continue as they were - and also, probably, start extracting whatever's been taken from them from the hides of those poor bastards whom the extra funds were supposed to help. and when the whining starts anew - they'll simply "we told you so" you.
the whole idea is totally asinine.
you know what would happen if these blm idiots got their way? many of the decent people - those you'd actually want to protect you - would feel betrayed and leave. and those, who would use their positions of power in the police to further their own ways would just continue as they were - and also, probably, start extracting whatever's been taken from them from the hides of those poor bastards whom the extra funds were supposed to help. and when the whining starts anew - they'll simply "we told you so" you.
the whole idea is totally asinine.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
your analysis of the problem is fucking asinine. what is anyone meant to do with that line of argument? 'it's not the police who murder black people and have racist cops on their police force that's the problem -- it's society'. ok, great, so BLM should aim for a complete material and spiritual overhaul of all american society. wow! that sounds very achievable! about as likely as russia reverting to communism, my guy.
how does it feel to be an impotent doctrinaire gadfly?
how does it feel to be an impotent doctrinaire gadfly?
it's not blm that should be trying that - it's the whole american society.uziq wrote:
ok, great, so BLM should aim for a complete material and spiritual overhaul of all american society.
you know when the actual protests should have started? not when another serial felon, who also happened to be black, got mistreated during arrest and died - but when another fucking crap stain was selected by dnc to be placed in the spot of the potus election ballot where bernie sanders' name should have been.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
ok, so the solution to this particular problem and issue of proposed reform is that ... the entire society needs to undertake a complete overhaul of its values and its system.
and HAHAHA, okay, bernie sanders would have magically fixed the institutional rot of various police forces upon his miraculous selection/election. no more black men would ever have been killed in a bernie sanders america. you sure do like messianism in russia, don't you? i can picture it now! bernie leaving the finland station, on the long train, just like lenin!
great. good job. have a cookie and go back to your crayons.
and HAHAHA, okay, bernie sanders would have magically fixed the institutional rot of various police forces upon his miraculous selection/election. no more black men would ever have been killed in a bernie sanders america. you sure do like messianism in russia, don't you? i can picture it now! bernie leaving the finland station, on the long train, just like lenin!
great. good job. have a cookie and go back to your crayons.
Last edited by uziq (2020-08-06 09:22:21)
uh-huh. it's called revolution. nothing short of that will truly fix the capitalist insanity that is ravaging the world atm.uziq wrote:
ok, so the solution to this particular problem and issue of proposed reform is that ... the entire society needs to undertake a complete overhaul of its values and its system.
on the immediate issue, however:
well... not exactly. i'm not even convinced he's genuine in his socialist stance, tbh - but if he was, and was occupying the white house, he would have a lot more ways to improve the situation than all the fucking dipshits shouting "fuck the police" in the streets of american cities together. bernie the potus could certainly have been a start. unlike the totally insane "defund the police"-schtick.bernie sanders would have magically fixed the institutional rot of various police forces upon his miraculous selection/election.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
revolutionaries couldn’t run two city blocks of portland. so much for the revolution.
I can assure you they understand the pressures more than the two of you think they do. If you want to make an informed statement you should probably do a research first.Larssen wrote:
I think, shahter, we actually might sort of agree here. Without the condescending derision towards minorities though.
it's amazing seeing white people explain to BLM protestors that 'ackshually, it's about the economy, if you only read marx ...'. my god, the civil rights movement was literally at the international/intercontinental congresses of marxism, in meetings with che and castro, etc. they fucking KNOW! it's part of the history of the civil rights struggle!
the 'long goal' of revolution is so remote from discussions of police reform, it's truly inane. surely if shahter knows his marx/engels, he knows that, according to historical materialism, revolution cannot be foisted upon a people? the revolutionary moment cannot be forced before the dialectic of history makes it so? ironically, marx/engels both said that russia would be just about the worst place for communism, because of this very reason: they lacked the historical development. no wonder the place now is full of lost eremites like him, waving around scrolls and shouting about 'the revolution!!!'
the 'long goal' of revolution is so remote from discussions of police reform, it's truly inane. surely if shahter knows his marx/engels, he knows that, according to historical materialism, revolution cannot be foisted upon a people? the revolutionary moment cannot be forced before the dialectic of history makes it so? ironically, marx/engels both said that russia would be just about the worst place for communism, because of this very reason: they lacked the historical development. no wonder the place now is full of lost eremites like him, waving around scrolls and shouting about 'the revolution!!!'
I would strongly support police reform in the US. So far the only thing I've railed against is diversity quotas and an outsized/dominating push for representation in managerial boards etc. It's all well and good to say that they understand socioeconomic pressures and are enlightened experts on marx, have read and understood all I have and some more, but a huge part of the movement isn't exactly academic and isn't necessarily saddled with that sort of thinking. Some on the other hand may well be and they argue for whatever reason that equal representation at society's top is the 'most important next step'.
And I get it, in a way, I just believe it's dumb. I'm also still personally conflicted over the extremely heated debates about ethnic/racial identity/'the clash of cultures' and the understanding that we can and should move beyond these social constructs. That may seep into my judgments a little as well.
Also I distance myself from whatever came after my 'we might agree' post, smh
And I get it, in a way, I just believe it's dumb. I'm also still personally conflicted over the extremely heated debates about ethnic/racial identity/'the clash of cultures' and the understanding that we can and should move beyond these social constructs. That may seep into my judgments a little as well.
Also I distance myself from whatever came after my 'we might agree' post, smh
Last edited by Larssen (2020-08-06 12:35:41)
People are racist, even black people are racist, no campaign or protest or quota program is going to solve it.uziq wrote:
your analysis of the problem is fucking asinine. what is anyone meant to do with that line of argument? 'it's not the police who murder black people and have racist cops on their police force that's the problem -- it's society'. ok, great, so BLM should aim for a complete material and spiritual overhaul of all american society. wow! that sounds very achievable! about as likely as russia reverting to communism, my guy.
how does it feel to be an impotent doctrinaire gadfly?
The police need to be disciplined and taught civics so they don't think they're robocop, otherwise good luck improving the world by forcing company boards to be 23% black.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
in a society as heated up as america, i think defunding the police is a fine idea. i am not for the abolition of police or stupid shit like anarchist communes. but america’s police forces and penal system are way too much like a professionalised cadre of thugs and over-armed bully boys who view citizens as sheep in a pen, with them as the wolves, or, worse, as outright enemies. police shouldn’t be patrolling around their beat in a mood of permanent suspicion; they should be more like community outreach. and as for this whole like ‘assert dominance’ shit, over routine traffic stops and broken tail-lights ... what the fuck. it’s like basic civility is disappearing.
aggressive, machismo, chauvinist, militaristic ... and it’s all due to spending priorities and how america prioritises it’s own organisation and administration.
i don’t think quotas are going to suddenly transform society, either, but it might go some ways to bringing more voices to decision-making, which is surely important for communities. there are too many school districts, as macbeth said, with councillors don’t represent the demographics they serve, and instead have busy-body semi-unemployed suburban housewives who like to keep ‘busy’ or work on their small-scale political careers. same thing with councils. changing communities need representation otherwise particular needs and nuances will not be met. i can’t help but feel that your objection to this is basically just one of ‘why should immigrants be given positions of power?’.
aggressive, machismo, chauvinist, militaristic ... and it’s all due to spending priorities and how america prioritises it’s own organisation and administration.
i don’t think quotas are going to suddenly transform society, either, but it might go some ways to bringing more voices to decision-making, which is surely important for communities. there are too many school districts, as macbeth said, with councillors don’t represent the demographics they serve, and instead have busy-body semi-unemployed suburban housewives who like to keep ‘busy’ or work on their small-scale political careers. same thing with councils. changing communities need representation otherwise particular needs and nuances will not be met. i can’t help but feel that your objection to this is basically just one of ‘why should immigrants be given positions of power?’.
the police is an arm of the state. and the state is one of the ways that ruling class realizes its power. what the "defund the police"-idiots are telling you is, basically, that they are going to force the ruling class to cripple their own arm. to think that something like that is going to work is totally fucking insane.
any game anyone on the left plays against their capitalist elite which begins with the word "defund" is lost by them before it even starts. whatever you manage to chip away from them they will inevitably get back, with interest most of the times.
now, i totally get it that large tasks - like socialist revolution for example - usually need to be broken into smaller parts. however, a clear picture of the end goal should always be present, otherwise you are doomed to get sidetracked and led into a dead end. and atm i don't see anything but identity politics of worst description and nothing else going on on the left in the west.
any game anyone on the left plays against their capitalist elite which begins with the word "defund" is lost by them before it even starts. whatever you manage to chip away from them they will inevitably get back, with interest most of the times.
now, i totally get it that large tasks - like socialist revolution for example - usually need to be broken into smaller parts. however, a clear picture of the end goal should always be present, otherwise you are doomed to get sidetracked and led into a dead end. and atm i don't see anything but identity politics of worst description and nothing else going on on the left in the west.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … the-police
Here's an article concerning jurisdictions in the US in which public officials (I believe this is the "ruling class" in your post) are proposing defunding the police, or already have.
Here's an article concerning jurisdictions in the US in which public officials (I believe this is the "ruling class" in your post) are proposing defunding the police, or already have.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
I agree that defunding is a terrible choice of words, politically. If they were smart they would strictly speak in terms of reform, which has some ambiguity to it and is above all more accurate.Shahter wrote:
the police is an arm of the state. and the state is one of the ways that ruling class realizes its power. what the "defund the police"-idiots are telling you is, basically, that they are going to force the ruling class to cripple their own arm. to think that something like that is going to work is totally fucking insane.
any game anyone on the left plays against their capitalist elite which begins with the word "defund" is lost by them before it even starts. whatever you manage to chip away from them they will inevitably get back, with interest most of the times.
now, i totally get it that large tasks - like socialist revolution for example - usually need to be broken into smaller parts. however, a clear picture of the end goal should always be present, otherwise you are doomed to get sidetracked and led into a dead end. and atm i don't see anything but identity politics of worst description and nothing else going on on the left in the west.
But to say that the police is merely 'an arm of the ruling class' isn't true. Especially in healthy democratic systems the state organisations & services are subject to public accountability. Locally and nationally. Moreover, in many European countries the police have a local community driven origin rather than being a national state organisation at heart. They were municipal organisations formed by local communities to protect itself against banditry and rural criminality, often because lords and kings couldn't/didn't - an initiative by the people for the people. So to first serve the public is in a sense in the DNA of these organisations.
Additionally and more practically, the effectiveness of a police organisation is very much dependent on public perception. Their closeness to people's individual lives makes it so that their legitimacy is derived from the view of the average joe, rather than the distant state. A mandate from the ruler is not enough.
What exactly do people think will happen when the police are defunded?
"Thank you for calling 911
If you are being murdered please go online and fill out form M103 to arrange your burial
If you are being robbed be thankful that wealth transfer is so easy and efficient and bureacrat-free these days
If you are being raped by a white man please fill out form RW102 to ensure you receive child support payments from him
If you are being raped by a black man check your prejudices and don't call back"
"Thank you for calling 911
If you are being murdered please go online and fill out form M103 to arrange your burial
If you are being robbed be thankful that wealth transfer is so easy and efficient and bureacrat-free these days
If you are being raped by a white man please fill out form RW102 to ensure you receive child support payments from him
If you are being raped by a black man check your prejudices and don't call back"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
It's getting rather tired that even in your imagination a default response is to victimise white people while vilifying black people or anyone else.Dilbert_X wrote:
What exactly do people think will happen when the police are defunded?
"Thank you for calling 911
If you are being murdered please go online and fill out form M103 to arrange your burial
If you are being robbed be thankful that wealth transfer is so easy and efficient and bureacrat-free these days
If you are being raped by a white man please fill out form RW102 to ensure you receive child support payments from him
If you are being raped by a black man check your prejudices and don't call back"
You absolutely know that your "research" and "arguments" for this are cherry picked, anecdotal, tunnelvisioned and in summary full of shit. Unbelievable to me that you can consider yourself a fair, non racist person while typing bile about groups of people who are not white at every opportunity.
ok you literally do not understand what the term means and haven’t even done a 5 minute cursory read into the matter.Dilbert_X wrote:
What exactly do people think will happen when the police are defunded?
"Thank you for calling 911
If you are being murdered please go online and fill out form M103 to arrange your burial
If you are being robbed be thankful that wealth transfer is so easy and efficient and bureacrat-free these days
If you are being raped by a white man please fill out form RW102 to ensure you receive child support payments from him
If you are being raped by a black man check your prejudices and don't call back"
amazing how you spend more time stubbornly arguing on an internet forum from a position of total ignorance rather than educating yourself. could it possibly be because you’re a smug racist??? make u think.
by the way the US judiciary/supreme court has been historically far kinder to white victims of ‘racism’ cases/appeals involving constitutional amendments than black victims. no surprises there. a decent number of successful appeals in contemporary times have involved white plaintiffs/victims and ‘affirmative action’ cases. and yet the narrative is always about BLM/black people using their constitutional rights to take over white society ... amazing!
Last edited by uziq (2020-08-09 02:26:32)
yes these people are very stupid and it’s the same garden variety of middle-class white people who have been trying to live on ‘free love’ communes since about 1963.Dilbert_X wrote:
LMAO
what does it have to do with 60 days of continuous BLM protests spread across almost every continent on earth?
Do you mean Portland?uziq wrote:
60 days of continuous BLM protests spread across almost every continent on earth?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
LOL OK.What would defunding the police look like?
Though it sounds like a decisive break with the past, defunding the police is also just an extension of old ideas that crime prevention is more effective than crime-fighting, and communities are best placed to do this.
One of the community groups behind Minneapolis City Council's majority vote to dismantle the local police force is MPD150, which describes itself as "working towards a police free Minneapolis". In the place of police, MPD150 envisions "community-based models of safety, support and prevention."
"Rather than strangers armed with guns," the group says, "we want to create space for more mental health service providers, social workers, victim/survivor advocates, religious leaders, neighbors, healers, and friends — all of the people who really make up the fabric of a community — to look out for one another."
But what does it actually look like? That's hard to say, as it hasn't been properly done before.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
do a research noob. the BLM protests have been much, much bigger than portland. of course people such as yourself have zoomed in telescopically on 2 city
blocks of portland where some municipal/mayoral clusterfuck is unfolding involving the city’s resident anarchists and white dreadlocks brigade.
because that’s really what BLM is about, isn’t it? radical anarchism and autonomous zones? lol derp derp
blocks of portland where some municipal/mayoral clusterfuck is unfolding involving the city’s resident anarchists and white dreadlocks brigade.
because that’s really what BLM is about, isn’t it? radical anarchism and autonomous zones? lol derp derp
You're right, BLM is about pushing over statues of anti-slavery campaigners.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!