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HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

uziq wrote:

heaven's, let the police have a good time whilst elijah mcclain, a 23-year-old who was murdered during a routine stop, lies in the ground. can't you people lighten up? you'll harass police for anything these days!
So... this photo was taken at the scene on the night of McCain's death?
uziq
Member
+466|2789
if i had been present at the loss of another human being's life due to a chokehold restraining, if i had even been witness to that, i definitely would not go around pranking and cavorting with my pals, evidently having a great laugh, and putting one another in chokeholds. it's beyond tasteless.

it's almost as if, on a basic psychological level, black lives don't matter to these people. if one of your buddies or family died in a chokehold, wouldn't it have some ominous or sombre association for you? but no, these guys were jerking around with chokeholds whilst elijah was basically still under a sheet, waiting to be buried. not even fazed at all.

and people are surprised about the vehemence of BLM rhetoric
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The chief, in so many words, called it tasteless.

But I guess let's ignore provided context and just call it an innocuous photo of three friends.
No context was provided.  Context was assumed/accused.  But not one shred of evidence was given in the story that makes this photo anything more than a photo of coworkers.
uziq
Member
+466|2789

HollisHurlbut wrote:

uziq wrote:



i pose like this for photos all the time. i put my friend's necks in the crook of my elbow and i scrunch up my face into a grimace of physical exertion. it's a totally natural pose.
I couldn't even guess the number of times I've seen photos like this, perhaps even been in them, since I started college.  I see literally nothing unusual in this.  At all.
how many deaths-by-chokehold have you been present for?
uziq
Member
+466|2789

HollisHurlbut wrote:

uziq wrote:

heaven's, let the police have a good time whilst elijah mcclain, a 23-year-old who was murdered during a routine stop, lies in the ground. can't you people lighten up? you'll harass police for anything these days!
So... this photo was taken at the scene on the night of McCain's death?
oh okay. so i guess you can stop expressing remorse over a death after 12 months or so. hope that works for members of the public, too.
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

uziq wrote:

if i had been present at the loss of another human being's life due to a chokehold restraining, if i had even been witness to that, i definitely would not go around pranking and cavorting with my pals, evidently having a great laugh, and putting one another in chokeholds. it's beyond tasteless.
I don't see a chokehold.  I see one person with his arm around another person.  Plenty of space is visible between the forearm and neck.

it's almost as if, on a basic psychological level, black lives don't matter to these people.
Really, it's almost as if, on a basic psychological level, you're looking for any excuse at all to condemn people and will make whatever assumptions are required to do that, despite the complete and utter lack of evidence to support those assumptions.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
oh okay so because his colleague wasn't literally in a chokehold, turning blue in the face, it's not really a chokehold. a simulated chokehold or a re-creation of a chokehold is not the same thing, guys! why are you being so mean to this officer?

it's funny how 'evidence' always falls stacked in favour of the police, isn't it?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

HollisHurlbut wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The chief, in so many words, called it tasteless.

But I guess let's ignore provided context and just call it an innocuous photo of three friends.
No context was provided.  Context was assumed/accused.  But not one shred of evidence was given in the story that makes this photo anything more than a photo of coworkers.
I know you don't like to, but read the article. Here:

AURORA, Colo. (AP) — Three officers were fired Friday over photos showing police reenact a chokehold used on Elijah McClain, a 23-year-old Black man who died last year after police stopped him on the street in a Denver suburb.

One of those fired is Jason Rosenblatt, a white Aurora officer who helped stop McClain in August for wearing a ski mask and “being suspicious.” Police put McClain in a chokehold, paramedics injected him with a sedative and McClain suffered cardiac arrest before later being taken off life support.

Aurora Interim Police Chief Vanessa Wilson told reporters that officers sent the photos to Rosenblatt and others two months after McClain died to “cheer up a friend,” without explaining who that was. Rosenblatt responded with a text saying, “Haha.” Officer Nathan Woodyard, who put McClain in a chokehold, also got the photos but he was not disciplined because he didn’t respond.

“We are ashamed, we are sickened, and we are angry,” Wilson said. The officers may not have committed a crime, but the photographs are “a crime against humanity and decency,” she added.
I shouldn't have to highlight the connections even if you are being willfully blind.

If I was a cop, I wouldn't think (as an example) it was a good idea (or very professional) to pose kneeling on the neck of another officer to cheer up a cop buddy who was involved in a neck-kneeling incident. You'd figure it's just common sense.

Police should be held to high standards and paid well for upholding expectations.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
police should absolutely be held to higher expectations. if someone died in a misadventure involving a chokehold and they weren't a police, there would be legal repercussions. manslaughter, etc. these guys got off completely free and were pranking about it 2 months later. 'where's the chokehold?' asks the very puzzled hollis.

if i was caught mocking an author behind their back i would lose my job. it's basic professional decency and integrity. these guys are taking human lives and they're forgiven everything. 'it's just young people, pranking around!' 'boys will be boys!' fuck me, what a sick culture.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

Imagine sending one of those exploding Incredible Crash Test Dummies action figures to a man who smashed his semi into some family car, killing multiple occupants. To "cheer him up."

Egads.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

I would also hope the truck driver wouldn't respond with 'haha.'
HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

uziq wrote:

oh okay so because his colleague wasn't literally in a chokehold, turning blue in the face, it's not really a chokehold. a simulated chokehold or a re-creation of a chokehold is not the same thing, guys! why are you being so mean to this officer?

it's funny how 'evidence' always falls stacked in favour of the police, isn't it?
Stop it.  Stop being stupid.  You're assuming things because you want them to be true.  If you have some evidence that this is actually supposed to be a chokehold or a recreation thereof instead of just a friendly arm-around-a-buddy, feel free to present it.  But I doubt you do because you would have already provided it.

Until you actually show some evidence that this photo should be taken in your preferred context, I'm done arguing this with you.  A conversation that relies on one party (you) making everything up to support their point of view is pointless.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
lmao are we even looking at the same picture?

a person mock-grimacing with his arm around someone's neck, in a pose unlike anything you'd see in some 'hug together close for a photograph' pose. ‘a friendly arm around a buddy’

a response saying 'haha', implying there is some joke or humour at play in the photograph.

and you're getting lost in literalism and pedantry, yet again. 'where's the actual chokehold? i don't see any application of choking force'. 'we have no proof that the person was laughing at the subject of the picture'.

you are full of shit. the 'evidence' is always conspicuously in your favour, isn't it? are we even looking at the same photo?

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-04 07:51:54)

HollisHurlbut
Member
+51|5335

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I know you don't like to, but read the article. Here:
I did actually read the article.  That's how I knew that not one shred of evidence was provided to support the accused context.  All you did was quote the accusation.  Understandable, because that's all there was.  But that still doesn't *poof* an accusation into evidence.

If I was a cop, I wouldn't think (as an example) it was a good idea (or very professional) to pose kneeling on the neck of another officer to cheer up a cop buddy who was involved in a neck-kneeling incident. You'd figure it's just common sense.

Police should be held to high standards and paid well for upholding expectations.
Your example would be valid if there were no other possible way to interpret the photo.  But there is, as that's a common grasp for buddies to do to one another.  I've done it.  And I did it way before I even considered entering the field of law enforcement.  As I said to uziq, I'm done with this conversation unless and until actual evidence is provided that the photo should be interpreted in the way you insist.  That means more than just the Chief's statement that simply makes accusations.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/31a84132662c43bea2e624fe9a4af9e7/1000.jpeg

regular pose, three buddies, yep. smiling. totally normal.

https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/96cb62e629eb42eebf67cc491012bd88/1000.jpeg

okay, now the guy is screwing up his face and has his friend's head in the crook of his arm. why is he standing behind him? why is his other arm leveraged up behind his back like that, linking with the other? why are they posing like this now?

it is staged, not some spontaneous on-the-spot photo. why would you contort your face into a grimace if you're just 'throwing an arm around a buddy' in a natural pose? why is he making that expression? why would they send this photo, of all arranged poses, to a colleague?

are you really going to tell us that human facial expressions actually signify something else now? is this the level we're at? fuck me. you are hopeless.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-04 08:01:24)

RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,724|6074|Oxferd Ohire
if there were other ways to interpret the photo why didnt the police go with that instead of firing them
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

re: hollis

I think the stretch is more the assumption that the photo and the response were purely accidental. I think most anyone with enough wit to put two and two together will probably agree it was in poor taste.

I'll allow that they might have just been too stupid to consider the ramifications of what they were doing.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
gerd-damn liberals have the police quakin' in our boots! if we're not careful then society will be burntded to the ground!
uziq
Member
+466|2789
i wonder if a pedophile ring were sending photos of suggestively posed girls to one another, but with no actual sexually explicit material, whether hollis would argue that there's 'no evidence' of their use, that looking at the context of dissemination and history is 'assumption', etc. etc. it's just middle-aged fathers sharing photos! perhaps they're proud of their daughters? perhaps exchanging fashion suggestions? where's the ACTUAL money-shot? i only see a simulated and suggestive finger! show me hard evidence!

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-04 08:05:36)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6109|USA

Unrelated note: It's pretty interesting reconnecting with someone, who talked up a ton of anti-cop/fed vitriol in relation to Waco and Ruby Ridge, suddenly have adopted thin-blue-line/all-lives-matter netizen skin. Making arguments about how the Job Is Tough and that we as "civilians" need to Show Respect.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
BLM is handy at pointing to the hard-baked racism of the 'patriot right-wing' in this way. you have a group of people who are deeply suspicious of authority, proudly identitarian, who enshrine individual rights and freedoms ... fleeing into the most bellicose pro-police and pro-army rhetoric because ... another group express their suspicion of authority, their demand for individual rights and freedoms ...

if 'libertarians' were anything other than a fey excuse for greed, selfishness and naked self-interest, you'd think they would form some sort of axis or coalition with BLM and other such groups, in the interests of holding power to account and ensuring maximal individual freedoms, etc etc.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-04 08:13:12)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|4695|London, England
On June 19, the mayor of Cottonwood, Arizona, unilaterally ordered city residents to wear face masks in public places. A week later, my family went downtown to grab some lunch at a favorite barbecue joint. The proclamation might as well have never been issued; we were among the very few people wearing masks on the street or in the stores.

The residents of Cottonwood aren't alone; compliance with orders from on-high is losing popularity across the country. One of the COVID-19 pandemic's legacies may well be an overwhelming public fatigue with being told what to do.

Truthfully, Cottonwood Mayor Tim Elinski couldn't have handled the mask order any more poorly. His order came after he lost a vote on the issue—which he admitted after the fact that he had held only because he thought he would win. The end result, then, was predetermined; he just didn't get the cover he'd anticipated from the city council. That annoyed people as much as the mask mandate itself.

It didn't have to be that way. A few days later I watched a woman stop in front of a sign posted in front of the local Safeway. She reached into her purse, pulled out a mask, and then entered the supermarket with her face covered as requested. As I watched, a steady stream of people mostly did the same. Asking nicely proved more effective than government commands at getting people to don masks.

But governments aren't about asking; ordering is what they do. And they're getting a lot of pushback.

Even at the beginning of the pandemic, when fear and uncertainty were at their height, many Americans worried that they would lose more to economic stagnation and social isolation than they gained from society-wide lockdowns. Closing businesses and banning gatherings might slow the spread of disease, but it also chokes off commerce, kills jobs, and sends people to the brink of despair.

"We're trying our best to stay afloat," the owner of a hair salon in Placer County, California, said at the end of April as she prepared to defy the state lockdown. "We had to open the shop because our families are depending on us."

That salon owner was joined by many others across the country who defied rules in order to put food on the table. And they're often willing to forcefully tell authorities where to get off.

"Frustrated small-business owners have turned to heavily armed, militia-style protesters … to serve as reopening security squads" to deter government officials from enforcing closure orders, The New York Times reported in mid-May. Disobedience morphed into open rebellion as people chafed against draconian commands and the resulting dwindling bank accounts.

It isn't only a matter of dollars and cents, either. In New York City, parents sick of confinement at home and unable to legally let their children blow off steam in playgrounds "cut the locks and chains on gates that had kept them closed for months," according to the New York Daily News.

Likewise, Santa Cruz County, California, reopened its beaches last week because people ignored lockdown orders. "It's become impossible for law enforcement to continue to enforce the closures," admitted Santa Cruz's health officer, Gail Newel. "People are not willing to be governed anymore in that regard."

Americans' unwillingness to be governed any further by officials who responded to the pandemic with a series of botched policy initiatives, personal exemptions, and seemingly arbitrary commands to the public is understandable. Why would you take orders from people who seem to have no idea what they're doing and clearly don't intend to follow the rules themselves?

Besides, it's not at all clear that the myriad dictates from authorities helped slow the spread of COVID-19 as promised. That's not to say they were entirely ineffective—experts debate the impact of the orders. But "months of mixed messages have left many exhausted and wondering how much of what they did was worth it," as a report in The New York Times concedes.

That uncertainty comes at a high price. Economic activity in the U.S. is expected to drop by about 8 percent this year, with a decade to come of reduced prosperity. Research suggests that government efforts to offset this economic carnage did little to preserve employment or to help the businesses most affected by people's reactions to the pandemic —both government-mandated and voluntary.

Yes, voluntary! As exemplified by the mask-wearers I saw entering Safeway, people are capable of responding on their own to requests and to personal health concerns. Analysis of cellphone data shows that Americans not only resumed moving around well before lockdown orders were lifted, they had also curtailed their movements before being told to do so. Once again, asking nicely may work better than issuing orders.

Of course, voluntary curtailment of economic and social activity has costs, too. But costs that result from individual decisions are unlikely to spark the resentment and rebellion that we get in response to mandates.

Yet more mandates are what we're getting. With cases of COVID-19 up (though death rates are down), many states are tightening the screws again on economic and social activity. But with growing numbers of people fed up with the frustrations and costs of lockdowns, and pretty much over being told what to do, it's unlikely that we'll see even the incomplete compliance that the pre-fatigue early days of the pandemic brought us.

That's unfortunate, because some measures to combat the pandemic might well be good ideas despite the best efforts of officials to provoke us into defiance with ill-considered commands. Wearing masks, improving hygiene, emphasizing curb-side and delivery services, and increasing social-distancing could help to slow the spread of COVID-19 so that medical facilities aren't overwhelmed, at least until vaccines and better treatments become available. The unmasked shoppers and diners in downtown Cottonwood effectively demonstrated the mayor's impotence, but they may not have done themselves any favors.

But I suspect that the days of widespread compliance with do-it-or-else mandates meant to curb COVID-19 are over. Government officials will have to go against their instincts and learn that, instead of commanding, they have to be satisfied with the results of polite requests.
https://reason.com/2020/07/03/post-pand … ng-orders/
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,944|5969|949

Guys. Guys. Guys! All the government had to do was ask nicely to don masks!

No, public sentiment couldn't have changed with the astonishment that over 130k Americans were dead. People aren't just now realizing the severity and results of a pandemic- people are wearing masks because we made it voluntary to do so.

Stupid article.
uziq
Member
+466|2789
truly retarded. the equivalent of beseeching government to use child psychology to get people to do what it wants.

'how to manage yes-no questions for your infant and gently encourage them to assent'.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3057
Going to disengage troll mode for a second and explain something good that happened for me as a result of this BLM stuff. This is going to be a long post. Too bad.

I was watching a Board of Education meeting for my hometown. My town is minority majority at this point but has the issue that almost all government jobs are staffed by white people. And white people with family and friend connections that got them the jobs. This has led to a situation where you have a government staffed by out of town people that aren't representative of the community. Same situation happened in Ferguson for some added context.

The members of the city's BoE are all white people as well as senior administrative staff. They had their 1 and a half hour meeting and then it was time to take community questions. All of the community questions were from BLM people with the exception of a white lady with a Spanish last name. She was there asking for the resignation of a board of education member who is a loud and proud Trump supporter.

The BLM people had a lot of questions regarding how to reform the schools to be more minority friendly. One thing that really upset the BLM people was that even though the district has tens of thousands of students, the vast majority of them non-white, the district only had 19 black teachers. Only 1 guidance counselor is non-white also. The BLM people wanted to know what is being done to get more minorities into the system so that you have educational staff that is representative of the people they are teaching. Education research has shown that this improves outcomes. The BoE had some "we are trying" answers and that's nice but outcomes and actions are better.

So even though I am not a black person, it is interesting and I guess nice to know BLM is out there fighting for me too? Hiring and civil service reform has been my interest for awhile due to the fact that I know there are plenty of minorities who are just as smart or smarter than whites that get hired for positions instead of them because those white people fit in better or have family and friends on the inside. I am strongly against reparations (but I would still cash the check) but the author Ta-Nehisi Coates who wrote the award winning long piece "The Case for Reparations" had a really good answer when someone asked him "what would prove racism is over in America?" He answered the "closing of the racial wealth gap". I am going to have to agree there. And to help close that gap, civil service reform needs to take place to build a stronger middle class of minority community leaders.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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