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2020-06-16 07:44:46
uziq
Member
+497|3712

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

The principal problem with US police lies in the focus on domination rather than deescalation. Battlefield dominance is a military objective, not the modus operandi for establishing security in a civilian society. You don't relentlessly shout at and shoot people. Take a cue from policing in northern europe and scandinavia please.
Ok. Please feel free to put people in timeout until they've calmed down and put the handcuffs on themselves. Maybe you can lecture them about why they've been a bad boy and how it's not really their fault.
every other country in the world seems to do fine without such high rates of death-by-cop.

sometimes you are hopelessly parochial.

how long would this guy have survived in the states? .5 seconds?



just like america's covid-19 response couldn't possibly be any better right? not like the rest of the world have any examples.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-16 07:46:01)

2020-06-16 07:52:02
Larssen
Member
+99|2147

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

The principal problem with US police lies in the focus on domination rather than deescalation. Battlefield dominance is a military objective, not the modus operandi for establishing security in a civilian society. You don't relentlessly shout at and shoot people. Take a cue from policing in northern europe and scandinavia please.
Ok. Please feel free to put people in timeout until they've calmed down and put the handcuffs on themselves. Maybe you can lecture them about why they've been a bad boy and how it's not really their fault.
Nobody is saying that but the fact of the matter is that cops often have to deal with irrational people: people who are mentally disabled, on drugs, drunk, suffer from psychiatric issues - a large portion of the work is social work. Which cops are trained for extensively in northern Europe. But also to restrain by force if absolutely necessary. Now shooting a man kneeling begging for his life or death by knee in neck do not strike me as absolutely necessary. We know these are structural issues rather than exceptions.

Why don't you try to be better? If you look at a country that has far lower crime rates, recidivism or police shooting victims, is there no lightbulb that lights up in your head thinking 'well maybe we should look into that'? 'Culture' can only explain so much - if it can at all really.
2020-06-16 08:31:12
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

The principal problem with US police lies in the focus on domination rather than deescalation. Battlefield dominance is a military objective, not the modus operandi for establishing security in a civilian society. You don't relentlessly shout at and shoot people. Take a cue from policing in northern europe and scandinavia please.
Ok. Please feel free to put people in timeout until they've calmed down and put the handcuffs on themselves. Maybe you can lecture them about why they've been a bad boy and how it's not really their fault.
Nobody is saying that but the fact of the matter is that cops often have to deal with irrational people: people who are mentally disabled, on drugs, drunk, suffer from psychiatric issues - a large portion of the work is social work. Which cops are trained for extensively in northern Europe. But also to restrain by force if absolutely necessary. Now shooting a man kneeling begging for his life or death by knee in neck do not strike me as absolutely necessary. We know these are structural issues rather than exceptions.

Why don't you try to be better? If you look at a country that has far lower crime rates, recidivism or police shooting victims, is there no lightbulb that lights up in your head thinking 'well maybe we should look into that'? 'Culture' can only explain so much - if it can at all really.
Culture explains a lot of it. Cops are seen as the enemy. Some of this the cops brought upon themselves, but much of it comes from the glorification of the dregs of society. Listen to the music and it's about fighting cops and not being a bitch. For all the time people like uzi spend defending said culture, they wouldn't last a minute within the confines of its brazen aggressiveness.

It's yet another example of white liberals knowing better, but refusing to pass judgment lest they be painted with the brush of racism. You all know that fighting the cops is wrong. You all know that getting drunk and passing out in a Wendy's drive thru is a good way to get arrested. But you can't say anything because you've been cowed. You'll nod along and say something about cultural relativism and how people live in different ways, but you know what it takes to succeed in this world. You're just afraid to say it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 08:36:39
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3979
Uzique is somewhat naive regarding fighting but he is right to think that they could have overpowered the guy instead of losing control of the situation. But that would be it's own form of police brutality.

I used to do these sorts of tournament fighting when I was younger.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0rt6mlqMrg0/maxresdefault.jpg
I was very good at it and won a lot of trophies. I haven't been in a street fight since I was 17 though. Sure, it's not grappling or a street fight but my point is that I am not someone who hasn't fought before. I also watch a lot of fights in /r/mma, /r/streetlights, and /r/brutalbeatdowns. So what I am trying to say is that I am pretty knowledgeable about violence.

In mixed martial arts grabbling and Brazilian jiu jitsu you are not allowed to grab onto the shorts or gloves of fighters.
https://img.mixedmartialarts.com/method=get&s=anderson-silva-chael-sonnen-07-08-12-15-11-31-740.jpg
It's too easy to hold someone down and get them mixed up if you are holding onto to things like their utility belt or uniform. The cops couldn't just jiu jitsu roll their way into submitting the guy on the ground. And the cops couldn't be sure he didn't have a knife or something he could pull out on them while wrestling.

The cops could have disengaged with him and beat him with their batons. They could have also hit him in the knee with one before trying to arrest him. That would have avoided the ground fighting and taser theft but it doesn't look good on camera. People would still have called it police brutality.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-26-2015/tST90e.gif

So in sum, the cops didn't have a lot of good options once he started fighting back during arrest. You guys still should not be so sanguine about the guy getting shot though.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-16 08:47:44
uziq
Member
+497|3712
i said at the very start that we were about to embark on several pages of hypothetical 'here's what i would have done' chit-chat that is pointless and moronic. it's not like i'm not self-aware of any of those things. no, i am not naively saying they could have effortlessly subdued him. i'm saying that they outnumbered him, he was incapacitated/drunk, and they had about half-a-dozen other options than 'lose taser and shoot him as he runs away'.

i said in my very first post that i give them a lot of latitude for the heat of the moment. still, a guy died, and that's no small thing.

i do think physical training and grappling training would be of more benefit than arming cops to the teeth. fewer dead people is always a good thing.

police brutality gets called police brutality once the force is disproportionate. circling around a guy to bludgeon him half to death with batons is not the same as using physical force of any kind. just like serving someone with an arrest warrant doesn't have to be the same as waco'ing their apartment. there sure is some slippery exaggeration going on here.

in general i don't like this ad absurdum rhetoric. you guys continually make out like there's no reasonable middle-ground between 'what happened' and 'oh, rodney king'. it's dumb. your numbers are the worst of any advanced country in the world. you can honestly do better.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-16 08:48:52)

2020-06-16 08:49:21
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England
I'm not sanguine about it. He probably shouldn't have been shot. But if he was willing to put up that much of a fight how could they know if he would pull a gun on them as soon as he got some distance? It's very easy to judge when you haven't had to do the job. Taking someone down and controlling them can be a total nightmare.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 08:53:01
Larssen
Member
+99|2147

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Ok. Please feel free to put people in timeout until they've calmed down and put the handcuffs on themselves. Maybe you can lecture them about why they've been a bad boy and how it's not really their fault.
Nobody is saying that but the fact of the matter is that cops often have to deal with irrational people: people who are mentally disabled, on drugs, drunk, suffer from psychiatric issues - a large portion of the work is social work. Which cops are trained for extensively in northern Europe. But also to restrain by force if absolutely necessary. Now shooting a man kneeling begging for his life or death by knee in neck do not strike me as absolutely necessary. We know these are structural issues rather than exceptions.

Why don't you try to be better? If you look at a country that has far lower crime rates, recidivism or police shooting victims, is there no lightbulb that lights up in your head thinking 'well maybe we should look into that'? 'Culture' can only explain so much - if it can at all really.
Culture explains a lot of it. Cops are seen as the enemy. Some of this the cops brought upon themselves, but much of it comes from the glorification of the dregs of society. Listen to the music and it's about fighting cops and not being a bitch. For all the time people like uzi spend defending said culture, they wouldn't last a minute within the confines of its brazen aggressiveness.

It's yet another example of white liberals knowing better, but refusing to pass judgment lest they be painted with the brush of racism. You all know that fighting the cops is wrong. You all know that getting drunk and passing out in a Wendy's drive thru is a good way to get arrested. But you can't say anything because you've been cowed. You'll nod along and say something about cultural relativism and how people live in different ways, but you know what it takes to succeed in this world. You're just afraid to say it.
I'm all for upholding law and order jay. But if attempting to uphold law and order results in weeks of riots and billions in damages, you might want to reconsider your approach. If your crime rates are much higher, and police shootings more frequent bar third world countries, your system is shit.

Sure enough you can double down on domination, but the best examples of such a regime can be found in every country that went through decolonisation. Didn't win us favours from the natives.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-16 08:56:38)

2020-06-16 09:04:53
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:


Nobody is saying that but the fact of the matter is that cops often have to deal with irrational people: people who are mentally disabled, on drugs, drunk, suffer from psychiatric issues - a large portion of the work is social work. Which cops are trained for extensively in northern Europe. But also to restrain by force if absolutely necessary. Now shooting a man kneeling begging for his life or death by knee in neck do not strike me as absolutely necessary. We know these are structural issues rather than exceptions.

Why don't you try to be better? If you look at a country that has far lower crime rates, recidivism or police shooting victims, is there no lightbulb that lights up in your head thinking 'well maybe we should look into that'? 'Culture' can only explain so much - if it can at all really.
Culture explains a lot of it. Cops are seen as the enemy. Some of this the cops brought upon themselves, but much of it comes from the glorification of the dregs of society. Listen to the music and it's about fighting cops and not being a bitch. For all the time people like uzi spend defending said culture, they wouldn't last a minute within the confines of its brazen aggressiveness.

It's yet another example of white liberals knowing better, but refusing to pass judgment lest they be painted with the brush of racism. You all know that fighting the cops is wrong. You all know that getting drunk and passing out in a Wendy's drive thru is a good way to get arrested. But you can't say anything because you've been cowed. You'll nod along and say something about cultural relativism and how people live in different ways, but you know what it takes to succeed in this world. You're just afraid to say it.
I'm all for upholding law and order jay. But if attempting to uphold law and order results in weeks of riots and billions in damages, you might want to reconsider your approach. If your crime rates are much higher, and police shootings more frequent bar third world countries, your system is shit.

Sure enough you can double down on domination, but the best examples of such a regime can be found in every country that went through decolonisation. Didn't win us favours from the natives.
Like I said, the riots were an identitarian power play in an election year. Do you think anyone gives a crap about George Floyd, the person? He was a symbol and an excuse. It got out of hand because there are millions of unemployed and out of semester white people in their 20s who see mixing it up with the cops as a rite of passage.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 09:09:04
Larssen
Member
+99|2147
Ah so it's a fluke - there is no problem at all. Just another day. All those black people talking about excessive police violence and the treatment of their communities by the police are just making this shit up. The only real problem is jobs.
2020-06-16 09:09:07
uziq
Member
+497|3712
you keep talking about riots and ignoring the fact that you're into your 2nd week of mass-scale peaceful protests.
2020-06-16 09:27:32
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

uziq wrote:

you keep talking about riots and ignoring the fact that you're into your 2nd week of mass-scale peaceful protests.
40 days of protests... 40 days that roughly coincide with the end of juiced up unemployment benefits paying everyone the national average wage to stay home.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 09:40:07
uziq
Member
+497|3712
i agree, this lot were just a bunch of bored layabouts who enjoy getting in trouble as a rite of passage. they love nothing more than 'mixing it up' with cops, talking about their second amendment rights, and quizzing the cops on case law and statute!

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20200430&t=2&i=1517080453&w=1200&r=LYNXMPEG3T1Z1

they're probably just idle loafers and opportunists with nothing better to do during covid.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-16 09:41:53)

2020-06-16 09:53:54
Larssen
Member
+99|2147
We all know that the unemployment levels in the covid crisis were a compounding factor in these protests. But after the rise of BLM, which has been around for a number of years now, it's beyond stupid to sweep under the rug the real discontent at the heart of these protests.

Following your argument is also a wild ride. Extrajudicial killing seems to be perfectly acceptable, after all, just don't be a dirty criminal. Why don't we reintroduce the punishment of chopping people's hands off for stealing while we're at it? The fuck is this laughable tough guy rhetoric I'm having to argue with.

Was your tour in Afghanistan? How did you enjoy the manly pashtunwahli?

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-16 09:55:21)

2020-06-16 10:00:55
uziq
Member
+497|3712
he was a network admin in iraq. jay is not a tough guy.
2020-06-16 11:47:29
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6969|England. Stoke
All these left wingers rioting...
https://twitter.com/passantino/status/1 … 0630626304

Last edited by coke (2020-06-16 11:47:58)

2020-06-16 11:47:51
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3979
Imagine calling yourself a libertarian while also be pro listen to the cops.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-16 11:56:16
uziq
Member
+497|3712

coke wrote:

All these left wingers rioting...
https://twitter.com/passantino/status/1 … 0630626304
remember there are only 10 far-right people in the US, according to jay. the real danger are 20 year old antifas.

remind me when leftist groups drive cars through crowds or summarily execute people in their cars.
2020-06-16 12:00:56
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6969|England. Stoke
The guy was also a serving Air Force MP.
2020-06-16 12:19:57
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Imagine calling yourself a libertarian while also be pro listen to the cops.
Libertarian doesn't mean anarchist. Justice and defense are valid functions of the government.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 12:24:33
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3979

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Imagine calling yourself a libertarian while also be pro listen to the cops.
Libertarian doesn't mean anarchist. Justice and defense are valid functions of the government.
What makes justice and defense valid but providing healthcare and food invalid?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-16 12:28:03
uziq
Member
+497|3712
because jay was reliant on the military for his break in life, and 'justice' is stuff that happens to other ethnic groups in other neighbourhoods.
2020-06-16 12:40:15
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7031|PNW

coke wrote:

All these left wingers rioting...
https://twitter.com/passantino/status/1 … 0630626304
It's still jarring to me seeing this stuff being given life on the internet.

I've often mentioned second civil war fetishists muttering darkly of violence to their fellow Americans, and the dangers posed by Heemeyer hero-worship.

“I became unreasonable” is a reference to a quote written by Marvin Heemeyer, an anti-government extremist who bulldozed 13 buildings in Granby, Colorado, in retribution for a zoning dispute. Heemeyer killed himself after the rampage, which occurred on June 4, 2004, almost 16 years to the day of Carrillo’s attack.
Written in blood on the hood of a car. I'd have been called insane or at least wildly imaginative for suggesting such a scenario way back when. Yet here we are.
2020-06-16 12:43:50
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3979
I watched a documentary on the killdozer guy. He was a complete shit head and ingrate. Good thing the only person he killed was himself.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-16 12:44:49
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5618|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Imagine calling yourself a libertarian while also be pro listen to the cops.
Libertarian doesn't mean anarchist. Justice and defense are valid functions of the government.
What makes justice and defense valid but providing healthcare and food invalid?
Because a libertarian society is based on freedom, respect and non-aggression. The legitimate role of government is to act as intermediary and judge when aggression by one party denies freedom to another party.

Your desire for healthcare and food is wholly personal and can be satisfied by your own contribution to society and the wages you earn to pay for it directly. There's nothing preventing anybody in a libertarian society from forming or joining insurance collectives.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-06-16 12:47:42
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7031|PNW

 

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