Pages: 1 … 82 83 84 85 86 … 255

 

2020-06-11 02:40:05
uziq
Member
+497|3713
the new constructivist view is that history is constantly being remade and rewritten, and that destroying statues is actually 're-entering' them into history, a sort of historiographical praxis. it's no longer a commemoration of a person or an event but a part of a changing historical current itself. wowser!

i also see little point in ever putting up statues again if they are all just going to be pulled down by the next lot with a different bunch of values. maybe islam is onto something when it forbids portraying the human form in art -- maybe it really is just all so much blasphemous conceit and tugging to and fro of worldly vanities.

hopefully one day in the future all the 'great men' and 'leaders' and 'icons' of today will be pulled down. is it too hard to imagine a future in which no one gives a fuck about the legacy of steve jobs or elon musk, and focusses instead on the conditions in fox conn factories or blood diamond wealth? maybe this whole century will seem just as morally bankrupt and corrupted as the so-called 'long and glorious' 18th century.

or maybe we should radically rethink the basis for western thought and society itself. aristotle, arguably the keystone of all western thought, logic, metaphysics, theology, etc, as well as the founding father of the natural sciences and empiricist spirit, was very in favour of slaves himself, after all. can we trust such barbarism?

larssen could we start a new society based on the wisdom of kendrick lamar lyrics? let me know.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-11 02:43:46)

2020-06-11 02:53:37
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
I take it you believe your succession of elevator beeps, random drumming and gay bdsm in berghain dark rooms present a higher form of artistic achievement than tpab
2020-06-11 03:01:21
uziq
Member
+497|3713
i don't listen to dance music for wisdom, if that's what you mean, no. i don't think anyone does. it's kinetic music, music for moving to. or one listens to electronic music to appreciate good production and audio: it is overwhelmingly concerned with technology, process, acoustics, etc., after all.

i also don't rank genres, it seems pretty silly. i'm actually listening to chamber music this morning; i might even dip into some free jazz! oh where does ornette coleman come on the hierarchy? above or below schubert? a vexing question ... do throw me a life-vest!

i get my politics from run the jewels bro. it's deep stuff!
2020-06-11 03:04:46
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
Tpab is very much full of jazz uziq
2020-06-11 03:05:39
uziq
Member
+497|3713
please go bother someone else with your 'beats by dre'-level of engagement with music.

'it's really deep! it samples jazz as well as boom-bap!'

you really are the worst liberal stereotype. full of enthusiasm for middle-aged broadsheet-columnist favourites like kendrick lamar, like a fucking guardian music section reviewer, but then immediately sniffy and dismissive of black protest movements and outcry against police brutality. lmao. 'kendrick lamar really encapsulates the black experience, it's such an engaging listen...' '... hey what are black people in belgium and the netherlands complaining about? now now, this sort of thing just isn't on!'

racial politics are very engrossing stuff when they're contained within a 'the wire' boxset. but you're affronted when it comes to a protest in your city. ok bro.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-11 03:09:43)

2020-06-11 03:10:06
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980
Consuming black media and products doesn't mean you are not racist. My white girl sister listens to all sorts of rap music but "can't stand black people", "there is a difference between black people and n----", and she has no black friends. I listen to very little rap music but am much more intone and compassionate towards the community. Racism is pretty complicated stuff and comes in many forms. And not all of those forms are necessarily bad either.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-11 03:11:35
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
2020-06-11 03:12:52
uziq
Member
+497|3713
did not click.
2020-06-11 03:17:01
Larssen
Member
+99|2148

uziq wrote:

please go bother someone else with your 'beats by dre'-level of engagement with music.

'it's really deep! it samples jazz as well as boom-bap!'

you really are the worst liberal stereotype. full of enthusiasm for middle-aged broadsheet-columnist favourites like kendrick lamar, like a fucking guardian music section reviewer, but then immediately sniffy and dismissive of black protest movements and outcry against police brutality. lmao. 'kendrick lamar really encapsulates the black experience, it's such an engaging listen...' '... hey what are black people in belgium and the netherlands complaining about? now now, this sort of thing just isn't on!'

racial politics are very engrossing stuff when they're contained within a 'the wire' boxset. but you're affronted when it comes to a protest in your city. ok bro.
I don't agree with protests in the US being copypasted to Europe. People holding protests against police brutality in germany, belgium, the netherlands - lol wtf? In these countries it's the exception if the police shoots, in the US it's an exception when they don't shoot. The differences in education, law, the police and judiciary and their conduct - there is no 1:1 comparison to be made.

As for racial politics, I've been plenty clear on that point. The way the anglosaxon world and their liberals handle these issues shouldn't function as an example to anyone.
2020-06-11 03:17:24
uziq
Member
+497|3713

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Consuming black media and products doesn't mean you are not racist. My white girl sister listens to all sorts of rap music but "can't stand black people", "there is a difference between black people and n----", and she has no black friends. I listen to very little rap music but am much more intone and compassionate towards the community. Racism is pretty complicated stuff and comes in many forms. And not all of those forms are necessarily bad either.
it must be quite difficult being kendrick lamar. a big portion of his fans come from the pitchfork/coachella white-person end of the spectrum. they listen to a few of his songs and want to shout out the n-word at his concerts. to feel part of all that experience. to well up with rage and frustration as he does.

after the gig they go home and get angry on the internet that slave-trade statues are being knocked down and beheaded.

it can't be an easy job.
2020-06-11 03:19:22
Larssen
Member
+99|2148

uziq wrote:

did not click.
It's hilarious you don't consider this worth a listen. Guess you can be very ignorant on things outside your own area of interest, which is ironically something you accuse me of.
2020-06-11 03:21:42
uziq
Member
+497|3713
i've listened to kendrick lamar before. he is one of the most popular rappers of the last 10 years. what do you think you're recommending, exactly? you sound like a freshman college student talking about american psycho, fight club, and now kendrick lamar. the world knows already, larssen. i have already said i don't like his rapping style or voice. it does nothing for me. suffice to say, i don't have much of a connection with his experience, either. it's funny that you're going into orgiastic enthusiasms over it, though. it is a huge white liberal stereotype. just not a very original one. so no, i am not pausing my music to indulge your vicarious white fantasies of identification. i know what kendrick lamar sounds like: mildly constipated with boring production.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-11 03:22:30)

2020-06-11 03:27:22
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
We got to this point because you first ridiculed the notion that some musical artists have enormous influence on the cultural movement of which BLM is also a part, then when I comment on your musical taste  make some reference to your interest in jazz, without apparently realising that tpab is an entirely jazz-based album, nonetheless continuing your elitist act with regards to the music kendrick makes. It's getting painfully ignorant uzi.

Yes, he is the most popular rap artist of the last decade. Maybe you should figure out why.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-11 03:28:23)

2020-06-11 03:30:18
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980
You guys should consider listening to some Slayer. That's more your culture than Kendrick Lamar.
Wife of Slayer’s Tom Araya is Sharing Racist, Pro-Police and Conspiracy Theory Memes on Social Media

Sandra Araya, wife of Slayer frontman and bassist Tom Araya, has in recent days been using her Instagram platform — which has more than 32,000 followers — to post memes and messages expressing blatant racism, opposition to the Black Lives Matter movement and support for law enforcement. Her posts also condone the conspiracy theories that the coronavirus pandemic is a hoax, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton ran a child sex trafficking ring and more, as well as support for the fringe alt-right conspiracy theory group QAnon.
Who knew the wife of a band member who made a song about the Holocaust would have some not very nice opinions?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-11 03:32:48
uziq
Member
+497|3713
are you also into one direction and adele? hope you're paying attention to all these 'most popular' artists, larssen.

'jazz'-based. it's really funny that it impresses you so much. please don't call me ignorant, you're the one who seems to find it tremendously impressive that a rapper has an upright bass and some scattish piano on a rap album.

in terms of jazz, that style of jazz is the equivalent of the sort of music you'd hear standing around in the foyer bar of a mid-range 3-star hotel, waiting for the eastern european barman to go and source a second olive for your dirty martini. it is generic jazz. lounge jazz. ironically it's dangerously close to the music you'd hear in the elevator of said hotel. there is nothing interesting about that jazz at all. it's obviously consciously harkening back to the 'classic' era of swing, big band, etc. that's fine. but please stop acting so damn fucking impressed about it. that was music for humming along to in the 1950s. it's not thelonious monk. it's not even bill evans.

in another decade past you would be a teenager fascinated with the 'high-concept' prog ramblings of pink floyd. unfortunately now you've got some beats by dre headphones and like to imagine you're somehow 'getting' the black experience when you listen to kendrick lamar and do squats at the gym. it's really not my fault you are a tragic walking idiot stereotype.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-11 03:34:24)

2020-06-11 03:36:22
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
It's more like calling the music of the vietnam era irrelevant to the war and the social strife in the US

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-11 03:36:48)

2020-06-11 03:40:04
uziq
Member
+497|3713
i have never said his music is irrelevant. i said it's not interesting to me. i am fine with that.

i also said i don't think the lyrics of rappers are going to discredit BLM. especially considering that the organizers of the movement and its rallies have explicitly, demonstratively made a point of it not being a 'celebrity'-oriented movement. they do not want rappers or media figures on soapboxes, taking a lead.

it mostly seems to be your own self-serving fantasies, that you're listening to some revolutionary music and participating in black emancipation by being a kendrick lamar fan. that's cool. join the queue with the 10,000s of other white liberals on the Guardian or Pitchfork who can't stop praising KL as well.
2020-06-11 03:49:13
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
Ok so the organisers of BLM are now the sole arbiters in what direction the emancipation movement in the US takes and what people will listen to or be influenced by? That's a bit of a shaky thesis here uzi.

lol I'm a spectator from a continent away. I have no part in any of this and have been abundantly clear I don't want it here either - you on the other hand...

I'm simply trying to understand what's happening in the US. You're the one beating the revolution for minority rights drum wherever there is a protest. Those who make the most noise are always right of course, anywhere any time.
2020-06-11 03:57:22
uziq
Member
+497|3713
i'm not beating any drums. i just pointed out that police brutality and unequal treatment is not limited to the united states. you immediately tried to minimize their experience. i have no stake in it but at least i recognise as such. i'm not even listening to rap music and getting lost in affective reveries of identification.

sure, shaky thesis that BLM's tone is set by its organizers and not rappers. meanwhile you think that the struggle of black people in the states will be discredited by a few couplets in a rap song about 9/11. lol. you are beyond parody.
2020-06-11 04:02:50
Larssen
Member
+99|2148
BLM is part of the cultural movement, it isn't the movement itself. Did BLM sanction and lead all the protests across the US in response to george floyd's death? Probably some, but definitely not all. Is everyone beholden to BLM for their opinions in this matter? Sure they're a visible and vocal actor with a lot of reach but I think you overestimate their control over what's happening here. Social movements are in almost all cases quite disjointed and disorganised.

Oh I'm not minimising the experience of black people in the United States. I'm opposed to the import of their struggle in continental Europe. I also asked a few pointed questions.
2020-06-11 04:26:01
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980
What about the struggles of migrant, and Muslims in Europe? There isn't a 1 to 1 equivalent but the underlining issues are the same.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-06-11 04:38:47
uziq
Member
+497|3713
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 … -treatment

So, for instance, at a time when the stated determination of the government has been to divert young offenders from the formal criminal justice approach, the proportion of young BAME prisoners has gone up, from 25% in 2006 to 41%. The numbers offending and reoffending also rose. Historically, stop-and-search powers have disproportionately targeted BAME people. In 2015, in response to widespread alarm, the Home Office and police tightened training and guidance of police officers, which instantly reduced the numbers being arrested. However, following a spate of knife crime, the rules were again changed and the numbers have moved back up to historic highs.

Between April 2018 and March 2019, there were four stop and searches for every 1,000 white people, and 38 for every for 1,000 black people. Lammy’s analysis of sentencing data showed BAME defendants were more likely to receive prison sentences for drug offences, even when previous convictions were taken into account. This was reinforced by research commissioned by the Sentencing Council published in January, which showed that if you are from a minority you are 1.5 times more likely to go to prison for drugs offences than if you are white.
people in the UK/europe are perfectly entitled to protest. excessive stop-and-search and heavy-handed policing have led to riots before. the history is very real. larssen just seems ignorant of it, or minimizes it, as i said.

it's weird that he argues it is a 'disjointed and disorganized' cultural movement, rather than some centrally-directed thing, and yet also gets sniffy when protests break out in places other than the US. well, what is it? it can't be both. cultural movements are seeds on the wind. who in the UK or the netherlands/belgium is 'importing 1:1' the american experience? nobody! they have their own contexts and struggles. 'i can't breathe' is a slogan, not the fucking full extent of their programme.
2020-06-11 06:51:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

'understanding and commonality' are just buzzwords. people will understand one another with comity when black people are paid as much as their white colleagues, like women and men, for doing the same role. it's not complicated. but it does involve you as a white male making concessions and ceding privileges.
They can be paid the same when they earn the same.
That way no-one needs to cede anything.
Fuck Israel
2020-06-11 06:54:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

hopefully one day in the future all the 'great men' and 'leaders' and 'icons' of today will be pulled down. is it too hard to imagine a future in which no one gives a fuck about the legacy of steve jobs or elon musk, and focusses instead on the conditions in fox conn factories or blood diamond wealth? maybe this whole century will seem just as morally bankrupt and corrupted as the so-called 'long and glorious' 18th century.
When nobody is anybody we'll all be equal I guess.
Fuck Israel
2020-06-11 06:57:52
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3980

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

hopefully one day in the future all the 'great men' and 'leaders' and 'icons' of today will be pulled down. is it too hard to imagine a future in which no one gives a fuck about the legacy of steve jobs or elon musk, and focusses instead on the conditions in fox conn factories or blood diamond wealth? maybe this whole century will seem just as morally bankrupt and corrupted as the so-called 'long and glorious' 18th century.
When nobody is anybody we'll all be equal I guess.
The proper term is long 19th century by the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_nineteenth_century
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

 

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