BF2S Forums Race relations thread

Peanut gallery says covid deaths are overreported.

Sorry, it kind of runs on doesn't it. Protests, US, covid. It's just a place I get to vent after being sucked into some unwanted conversations. This time the same conversation stressed how the protesters were hurting businesses and property while conveniently ignoring the people who weren't.

Goes without saying that they're probably all about at as much risk as those beach partiers.

They should all be charged with obstruction for getting in the way of a police bullet lawfully going about its business.

Should have rolled away faster.

Google comes up with is a similar situation in 2015 where he was tazed and shot with beanbags. He allegedly attacked them but there were 10 officers there to beat him up.

UK Police invented 'kettling', Harry Stanley had a dog set on him before he was pushed over, they're just as bad, thank god they're not generally armed.

If the US police continue down this path I see average citizens starting to fight back.

uziq wrote:

any number of these 'containment' incidents would be a national scandal here. an old man being pushed over and given brain damage? a 16-year-old being dropped by a bean bag? 6 NYPD officers swarming a cyclist crossing a road and beating him down with batons because the curfew has just commenced? protesters lay on the floor on their stomachs, and police walking up to them and pepper spraying a bunch of recumbent, non-aggressive people in the face? this shit would be on the frontpage headlines and there would be an outcry. but this is being defended, even by golden-boy cuomo, as perfectly ok.

the police in america are clearly out of control and this has been festering for a long time.

That is true, but I wonder if we aren't also increasingly projecting unrealistic expectations on law enforcement, or on military in a warzone for that matter. There seems to be a belief that they should act without emotion, without any prejudice towards the actions of others, to be a beacon of control and reason in the chaos around them, or be subjected to relentless public outcry. Of course excesses should be addressed, but to what extent and where do you draw the line in terms of reasonable force or allowed errors? They're still human after all, should cuomo chastise any transgression and publicly criticise/lambast the police in this situation? Would that be wise politically? (Tip: no)

In a more dystopian future, as soon as we can deploy AI's and drones en masse for crowd control purposes instead of people, it will be done as soon as possible. Goodbye to the human opponent, instead protestors will stare at an APC absent-mindedly piloted by someone from his work from home setup. The more we hammer on accountability and its entrenchment in law and rules, paradoxically the more inhumane society and government become.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-05 06:58:06)

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

any number of these 'containment' incidents would be a national scandal here. an old man being pushed over and given brain damage? a 16-year-old being dropped by a bean bag? 6 NYPD officers swarming a cyclist crossing a road and beating him down with batons because the curfew has just commenced? protesters lay on the floor on their stomachs, and police walking up to them and pepper spraying a bunch of recumbent, non-aggressive people in the face? this shit would be on the frontpage headlines and there would be an outcry. but this is being defended, even by golden-boy cuomo, as perfectly ok.

the police in america are clearly out of control and this has been festering for a long time.

That is true, but I wonder if we aren't also increasingly projecting unrealistic expectations on law enforcement, or on military in a warzone for that matter. There seems to be a belief that they should act without emotion, without any prejudice towards the actions of others, to be a beacon of control and reason in the chaos around them, or be subjected to relentless public outcry. Of course excesses should be addressed, but to what extent and where do you draw the line in terms of reasonable force or allowed errors? They're still human after all, should cuomo chastise any transgression and publicly criticise/lambast the police in this situation? Would that be wise politically? (Tip: no)

In a more dystopian future, as soon as we can deploy AI's and drones en masse for crowd control purposes instead of people, it will be done as soon as possible. Goodbye to the human opponent, instead protestors will stare at an APC absent-mindedly piloted by someone from his work from home setup. The more we hammer on accountability and its entrenchment in law and rules, paradoxically the more inhumane society and government become.

that's a quaint thesis, but the police are fucking up and fucking up very often. i'm sorry, but if you have poor impulse control and cannot keep a lid on your temper, especially when it comes to applying force and violence to other people, then you should not be a cop. there's a big difference between expecting someone to be perfect and an angel, and expecting them to abide by basic laws. police forces in most of the advanced world do not struggle with this concept. they should be models of restraint and probity, not a bunch of fucking thugs meting out 'payback'. regular citizens do not get to wail on people because they were 'provoked' or 'triggered'. it may be a mitigating factor, sure, but a mitigating factor in a courtroom because you broke the fucking law.

in the above video of the man being needlessly pushed over and suffering a brain trauma, the buffalo police reported it as 'he tripped and fell'. it is clear that he didn't trip and fall. this shit is systemic. in an era before cameras, and hence more public accountability, it would have been the norm. 'oh, sorry your dad is now a vegetable, he tripped and fell in front of our good officers'. nevermind that the act happened, but, worse, the 20 other officers present stopped the guy from helping, and ignored a guy bleeding out on the floor (just like they ignored a crumpled 16-year-old who took a shot to the head). they then filed a report saying the guy tripped. so one 'bad egg' but 20 others willing to cover for him, too? not fucking good enough, larssen.

'intelligent policing' using computers, data, surveillance tech etc. is nothing new and seems to be working in tandem nicely with police departments. the results surely depend upon the werewithal and willpower of the department using them. i know that certain police departments such as in LA have used data mapping/visualizations and suchlike to improve their beat. if data helps you see that your department is being institutionally racist and discriminatory, and not policing the right areas effectively, or helps you to map patterns of anti-social behaviour and vectors of actual crime, then that's A Good Thing. smart policing is very much a welcome introduction, in my opinion. street thuggery and terrorizing the law-abiding population, not so much.

the police in america do not have too much technology: they have too much overlap with the military, and with military hand-me-downs, and hence an escalation of their firepower and arsenals. if you give someone new tools or shiny new toys, they are going to find excuses to use them.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-05 08:13:15)

uziq wrote:

Salem, OR: cop tells armed Proud Boys/white supremacists to hide in their buildings because they are about to gas protesters. He said he was warning them discretely because he didn't want protesters to see police "play favorites".

https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/sta … 53632?s=20

There's a lawsuit going about about the Portland Police and their cozy relationship with white supremacists. Who would have thought a state created as a white haven would have systemic racism?

https://twitter.com/mjfree/status/1268739364630212610

this is just plain fucking funny. why are half of those people cops? lmao.

It might not be outrageous to say that sending the National Guard to manage protest will be a good thing. The National Guard is more representative of the nation than America's police force. National Guard are more trained than American police and will probably not get as spooked by a thrown water bottle or a black guy standing around menacingly.

That said, I do not trust Trump to not order or encourage the National Guard to treat the protesters like enemy combatants. And all of the National Review articles and New York Times Op-Eds from Republicans foaming at the mouth to send in the troops are repulsive. It does the opposite of convince anyone not already on their side. It might as well be performance art.

The protest seem to have gotten much more peaceful. Now would be a good time to actually discuss what can reforms can take place. I don't expect anything substantive to come out of these discussions.