Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-15 07:05:17)
how ironic, considering you spend so much time and effort now on raillery against those who complain about your administration. parroting every line in the book about their ‘weakness’, ‘emotionalism’, etc. calling the complainers mentally ill, or suffering from a sickness...Jay wrote:
Chart looks almost inversely proportional to Ability to Complain about the current situation. I'm sure North Korea is damn near 99% approval.
Last edited by uziq (2020-05-15 07:19:39)
Really? Then why do so many tens of thousands of Chinese emigrate to the US and Canada and Australia every year? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, what you've been exposed to is propaganda? You said it yourself, right? Your supposed ex-girlfriend (i.e. that girl you chatted with on the internet that one time) was very pro-China. Why? It's not like she hadn't been indoctrinated her entire life in state propaganda and nationalism... It's not like she hasn't seen dissenters disappear, or the universal scared deference. Yeah, everything is completely hunky dory. They all want to live in a hive minded society without any freedom.uziq wrote:
how ironic, considering you spend so much time and effort now on raillery against those who complain about your administration. parroting every line in the book about their ‘weakness’, ‘emotionalism’, etc. calling the complainers mentally ill, or suffering from a sickness...Jay wrote:
Chart looks almost inversely proportional to Ability to Complain about the current situation. I'm sure North Korea is damn near 99% approval.
i know it’s amazing to comprehend, but china has plenty of newly rich middle-class and a huge rump of cultural conservatives, much like in america, who are only too happy to support it.
ditto with russia. from the outside we imagine it being one giant corrupt kleptocracy, imposed on a downtrodden people. which it is. but ideology is a funny thing. putin has amazing approval ratings, and nobody has a gun to their head. a family totally ripped off by the mafiosos still remembers fondly how putin took the fight to the chechens. that sort of thing counts for a lot.
it’s the same in america, after all. trump supporters from any cold economic perspective clearly look like turkeys voting for christmas (you are one of them, hence being anointed our resident bootlicker). politics is often perverse.
so no, i don’t buy the idea that huge countries like india and china are ruled by duress, and ‘approval’ is coerced like in coffin states like NK or saudi arabia. there are simply too many people to manufacture that consent. the simple matter of fact is that the CCP has overseen the greatest transformation of human fortune in the history of mankind. that’s not nothing. many people in china are obscenely proud of their 20th century, and their undeniable ascent to the top table. they are not indoctrinated or forced to express positive opinions: they have them. it’s like accusing patriotic americans in the optimistic, booming 1950s of being mindwashed.
it’s often a device of right-wing rhetoric in the west to make out that anyone, anywhere else, claiming to be happy under an alternative system is a dupe, or a hostage, or a deluded fanatic. dilbert claiming that most asians would rather be in the west is naive hillbilly at best, raving ethno-nationalist at worst. in any case, there’s not a single survey, poll, study or even news story to support it.
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optimism about that 'inevitable' march of liberalism and democratization has to now be seriously reconsidered. that is entirely my point, made several posts ago. many chinese are reverting to views of their parents and their cultural conservatives. democracy in the age of trump is not the hallowed and unimpeachable ideal it has been in the past. that sort of 'end of history' triumphalism is looking a lot like what westerners said about russia after the collapse of the USSR. well, how is that going? as putin does, xi jinping does.It is clear that public support for democracy is high in China. Public opinion surveys showthat more than 90% of Chinese citizens believe that having a democracy is good. But the majority is not yet ready for a major effort towards democratization because they still see economic growth and social stability as more important than freedom of speech, political participation, and other democratic rights. However, more and more people are growing up with the belief that political rights and freedom supersede economic wellbeing or other materialist goals. In 15 – 20 years, Chinese society will be dominated by people with such beliefs. We can be cautiously optimistic about the prospects for democratic change in China
in effect the situation seems to be that the majority of citizens are in support of their government, especially in matters when china comes under scrutiny from outsiders/the rest of the world. and that they see the development of democracy as being perfectly feasible within the existing structures of the CCP. americans can't seem to get their head around it.American policy makers often draw a sharp distinction between what the historian Jeffrey Wasserstrom has termed “big bad China and the good Chinese people,” stressing that today’s more hawkish China policy is directed against the CCP and not the ordinary people who “dream of freedom.”
Yet China contains multitudes — not just dissidents, democrats, and human rights defenders — and many Chinese are vocal supporters of their government.
Indeed, various multinational opinion surveys consistently find a “high level of regime support” in China, even after factoring in the possibility that some people hide their dissatisfaction for fear of political repercussions. In 2014, Pew Global Research found that a staggering 92% of respondents had “confidence” in their country’s leader, Xi Jinping.
There’s no doubt China’s expansive system of propaganda, censorship and “patriotic education” helped shape such views, but we would be remiss to ignore the many reasons Chinese have to feel satisfied with their government’s performance. One particularly striking example is that a large majority of Chinese believe their children will be better off financially than their parents, while most Americans think their children will be worse off.
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Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-15 10:55:24)
it certainly isn't. you were the one stressing the coastal elites. and weren't you the one who had never heard of wuhan at the start of this thread, and made out that travel and logistics to the place would be very minor? turns out you didn't even know about the logistics hub of china.China as a whole is not Shanghai and other rich coastal areas.
are you talking about china or your beloved EU?But there are very deep cracks in that system. There's over 30 different ethnic groups only a handful of whom are in the good graces of the CCP, who benefit and live relatively freely. It's also a society where wealth inequality is far greater than anywhere else, where being rich means no rules and no accountability to anyone. It's not as if the people don't see it and aren't angry about it, but the CCP has so far always deftly redirected that anger to nebulous 'corruption' and other issues. A purge every once in a while and immediately crushing all opposition while deflecting all criticism has proven good strategies in controlling public opinion. But there's a lot to unpack under the surface here.
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Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-15 11:08:50)
Arabs and blacks living in Netherlands will probably say there is a caste system in place too.Larssen wrote:
Forgot about HK or the routine terror attacks in Xinjiang, the state of Tibet? China is super stable? Part of it is yes, the rest by force and violence.
Yes wealth disparity in the west is also a problem but there's levels to this? The disparity in even the US pales compared to China. Millionaires and up drive around in cars without number plates buying their way through life. Meanwhile entire families live in 1 bedroom appartments and there's a formalised caste system of sorts keeping people down.
I have said many times the EU is not intent on creating a homogenous culture and won't do so. Nor have I ever cited the roman empire and if I would I'd cite its surprising multicultural tolerance.
I don't care much for the dutch but I know they don't have a formal caste system at all. Also if you want to make that comparison I'd say ethnic divisions are worst in belgium.SuperJail Warden wrote:
Arabs and blacks living in Netherlands will probably say there is a caste system in place too.Larssen wrote:
Forgot about HK or the routine terror attacks in Xinjiang, the state of Tibet? China is super stable? Part of it is yes, the rest by force and violence.
Yes wealth disparity in the west is also a problem but there's levels to this? The disparity in even the US pales compared to China. Millionaires and up drive around in cars without number plates buying their way through life. Meanwhile entire families live in 1 bedroom appartments and there's a formalised caste system of sorts keeping people down.
I have said many times the EU is not intent on creating a homogenous culture and won't do so. Nor have I ever cited the roman empire and if I would I'd cite its surprising multicultural tolerance.
Are you just playing devil's advocate here because I can't tell if you've just gone insane or are just trying to get under my skin. Either way it's not working, and this reads like the writing of a retarduziq wrote:
i actually don't know what to say to someone who on the one hand lectures on 'how china isn't the coastal cities' but then thinks tibet and hong kong are serious points of crisis. they are trivial, minor concerns to the chinese. the majority of mainlanders hold hong kong in contempt (it's mutual).
you are seemingly overlooking the lives and views of the vast majority of average chinese, and focussing on western headline-getters. tibet is not an issue that troubles people in the multiplicand million-plus cities of the mainland. they like their government.
Last edited by uziq (2020-05-15 11:20:36)
Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-15 11:23:57)
neat guesswork, resident sinophile. unfortunately some of the very first reported infections after wuhan were in singapore and south korea. try again!Oh, it's barely nr. 16. That's probably still mostly domestic flights.
Last edited by uziq (2020-05-15 11:24:16)