good-o. now all you have to do is go and learn what those terms actually mean. you've been struggling with 'socialist' and 'liberal' for the vast majority of your time here. like calling obama a 'socialist'. sorry, please try again.Jay wrote:
Yes, calling the thing by the things proper name does seem to make more sense!Larssen wrote:
I don't think I've ever used the terms left or right to describe anything in a serious sense or seen it written somewhere. Socialist, liberal, authoritarian, communist, monarchist, nationalist etc. These make sense. Left and right mean nothing.
Soviet propaganda defined the Nazis as right wing. Western journalists and writers sympathetic to the Soviets picked it up and it became the normal way to describe the Nazis. And here we are 80 years later still using definitions that started as propaganda.uziq wrote:
the soviet union didn't define the nazis as 'far right', and if they did, what sort of influence would they have possibly had on western historiography? they wrote an entire different history book for most of the 20th century. what the fuck are you even talking about?Jay wrote:
You can thank the Soviet Union and liberal useful idiots in America for defining the Nazis as "far right", and writing it into the textbooks.Larssen wrote:
So hard left it circles back to the right!
I notice wikipedia does refer to nazism mostly as 'far right' but the ideology/system of governance is so far removed from classical 'left' or 'right' thinking I can't reasonably accept that application.
Thinking about it it's kinda weird that we've somehow decided to capture all politics in some binary. You're either 0 or 1!
So in America, if you use the left wing version of labels, "far right" means people who want basically no government, but also people who want total government and also to exterminate all the minorities. Makes a lot of sense, right?
most far-right people have no problem identifying that as what they are. only in your smooth-brained national review world, where 'white is black and black is white', do you want to reclaim the territory for your own asinine semantics.
i've posted a long debunking of this topic before by an eminent british historian. i will find it again.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
considering the nazis themselves, you know, launched their party as a 'counter-revolutionary' force to beat back the 'international left', i don't think the soviets are quite responsible for the right-wing thing.
https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/
https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/
Last edited by uziq (2020-05-11 06:00:57)
How do you not have enough savings to last six months?Jay wrote:
If you can afford to own an apartment, you should be able to build up savings. I'm not really sure why you are against having personal savings built up.
Fuck Israel
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3959
If the Nazis were leftist why did they ban all of the leftist parties like the SDP and KDP? Why did Hitler dissolve the right wing parties into the Nazi political structure?Jay wrote:
Soviet propaganda defined the Nazis as right wing. Western journalists and writers sympathetic to the Soviets picked it up and it became the normal way to describe the Nazis. And here we are 80 years later still using definitions that started as propaganda.uziq wrote:
the soviet union didn't define the nazis as 'far right', and if they did, what sort of influence would they have possibly had on western historiography? they wrote an entire different history book for most of the 20th century. what the fuck are you even talking about?Jay wrote:
You can thank the Soviet Union and liberal useful idiots in America for defining the Nazis as "far right", and writing it into the textbooks.
So in America, if you use the left wing version of labels, "far right" means people who want basically no government, but also people who want total government and also to exterminate all the minorities. Makes a lot of sense, right?
most far-right people have no problem identifying that as what they are. only in your smooth-brained national review world, where 'white is black and black is white', do you want to reclaim the territory for your own asinine semantics.
i've posted a long debunking of this topic before by an eminent british historian. i will find it again.
And its hilarious 'the right', which is to say American socialists, is now casting the Nazis as socialists.Jay wrote:
Soviet propaganda defined the Nazis as right wing. Western journalists and writers sympathetic to the Soviets picked it up and it became the normal way to describe the Nazis. And here we are 80 years later still using definitions that started as propaganda.
Fuck Israel
and if the republican party and right-wing are all about freedom and deregulation, why is trump so against the free market? how many trade wars has he started and self-wounded over? how protectionist and isolationist was his platform? how many tariffs instated?
barmy.
barmy.
you are also misusing socialism entirely. socialism is not government tax and spend. socialism is worker-oriented. the american right are shameless hypocrites over a lot of things but they aren’t crypto-socialists.Dilbert_X wrote:
And its hilarious 'the right', which is to say American socialists, is now casting the Nazis as socialists.Jay wrote:
Soviet propaganda defined the Nazis as right wing. Western journalists and writers sympathetic to the Soviets picked it up and it became the normal way to describe the Nazis. And here we are 80 years later still using definitions that started as propaganda.
Why does the party of big government militarism hate the soviets so much?
Sad!
Sad!
Fuck Israel
Can we try not americanise european world war 2 politics? Anyone who draws parallels between nazism and communism and american democrats & republicans is an imbecile
Speaking of which I find it hilarious how democrats have been referred to as both communists and nazis.
Speaking of which I find it hilarious how democrats have been referred to as both communists and nazis.
Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-11 06:18:50)
I'm thinking more of crony capitalist big government Republicanism which isn't much different from Stalinist crony 'socialism' which isn't socialism at all.uziq wrote:
you are also misusing socialism entirely. socialism is not government tax and spend. socialism is worker-oriented. the american right are shameless hypocrites over a lot of things but they aren’t crypto-socialists.Dilbert_X wrote:
And its hilarious 'the right', which is to say American socialists, is now casting the Nazis as socialists.Jay wrote:
Soviet propaganda defined the Nazis as right wing. Western journalists and writers sympathetic to the Soviets picked it up and it became the normal way to describe the Nazis. And here we are 80 years later still using definitions that started as propaganda.
Fuck Israel
I'm coming to the conclusion you don't understand American politics at all.Larssen wrote:
Speaking of which I find it hilarious how democrats have been referred to as both communists and nazis.
Fuck Israel
in that sense, yes, but i guess you're just multiplying the misnomer by another degree.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm thinking more of crony capitalist big government Republicanism which isn't much different from Stalinist crony 'socialism' which isn't socialism at all.uziq wrote:
you are also misusing socialism entirely. socialism is not government tax and spend. socialism is worker-oriented. the american right are shameless hypocrites over a lot of things but they aren’t crypto-socialists.Dilbert_X wrote:
And its hilarious 'the right', which is to say American socialists, is now casting the Nazis as socialists.
like calling totalitarianism what it is, call cronyism what it is. the american right-wing are pro-big business at the expense of the workers. socialism is worker's cooperatives. they are not the same beast.
Dilbert I can understand the stupid masses invoking the image of the enemy and projecting it on their political opponents but I expect better from my fellow forum dwellersDilbert_X wrote:
I'm coming to the conclusion you don't understand American politics at all.Larssen wrote:
Speaking of which I find it hilarious how democrats have been referred to as both communists and nazis.
Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-11 06:23:40)
i was referring to jay's characterisation of the democrats/republicans, not comparing it to ww2.Larssen wrote:
Can we try not americanise european world war 2 politics? Anyone who draws parallels between nazism and communism and american democrats & republicans is an imbecile
Speaking of which I find it hilarious how democrats have been referred to as both communists and nazis.
everyone here already knows that jay doesn't understand european history. he consistently misuses 'enlightenment', 'classical liberalism', 'classical conservatism' etc ad nauseam without a clue about the 18th and 19th centuries. nobody can be surprised that he misunderstands the left wing and right wing in modern europe, either.
he definitely hasn't read any stendhal.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3959
interestingly enough, National Review has an article on its front page comparing the French response to the German Blitzkrieg to the Democrat response to "Wuhan virus".
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/ … -for-2020/
"Blitzkrieg Lessons for 2020"
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/ … -for-2020/
"Blitzkrieg Lessons for 2020"
Maybe he needs to apply more hegelian dialectic
a book that would really help him understand things is marx's 18th brumaire of louis napoleon.
Also cantilever and parabola.uziq wrote:
everyone here already knows that jay doesn't understand european history. he consistently misuses 'enlightenment', 'classical liberalism', 'classical conservatism' etc
It must be confusing that the Nazis used 'socialist' in their name.
Crony capitalism is socialism, just not for the poor.
Fuck Israel
This is the first article of theirs I have ever read. The amount of sweeping statements, unsubstantiated off-hand remarks and sheer bullshittery is... wowSuperJail Warden wrote:
interestingly enough, National Review has an article on its front page comparing the French response to the German Blitzkrieg to the Democrat response to "Wuhan virus".
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/ … -for-2020/
"Blitzkrieg Lessons for 2020"
I just recently wiped out a bunch of credit card debt. I could get by for 6 months with my current savings, but it would be very uncomfortable.Dilbert_X wrote:
How do you not have enough savings to last six months?Jay wrote:
If you can afford to own an apartment, you should be able to build up savings. I'm not really sure why you are against having personal savings built up.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I've never understood why people have credit card debt when they can just go to the bank and borrow the same money at 1/4 of the interest.
Fuck Israel
so it's not socialism, then. the core tenet of socialism, without which it is meaningless, is the worker's owning or having a share in the means of production. 'crony capitalism' for a business elite is the antonym of socialism. in the exact same sense that fascism, being an alliance between state rule and big business, is a turbo-charged form of capitalism, and also the opposite of socialism.Dilbert_X wrote:
Crony capitalism is socialism, just not for the poor.
again, 'socialism' =/= 'wealth redistribution' or 'tax and spend'.
Larssen wrote:
This is the first article of theirs I have ever read. The amount of sweeping statements, unsubstantiated off-hand remarks and sheer bullshittery is... wow
Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm coming to the conclusion you don't understand American politics at all.
Fuck Israel
The workers do have a share in the means of production, but only the rich workers.uziq wrote:
so it's not socialism, then. the core tenet of socialism, without which it is meaningless, is the worker's owning or having a share in the means of production. 'crony capitalism' for a business elite is the antonym of socialism. in the exact same sense that fascism, being an alliance between state rule and big business, is a turbo-charged form of capitalism, and also the opposite of socialism.Dilbert_X wrote:
Crony capitalism is socialism, just not for the poor.
again, 'socialism' =/= 'wealth redistribution' or 'tax and spend'.
Fuck Israel