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2020-05-04 04:17:57
uziq
Member
+496|3691
That question arises on so many topics it's depressing. People understand so godawfully little about how their daily lives are supported.
not buying from giant discount german supermarkets (aldi, lidl, etc) like the majority of brexit-voting britain, and opting for the more expensive stuff anyway, i am immune. ditto with clothes and other cheaply made goods from the far-east. if the working-class of this country want to force themselves into bienpensant middle-class patterns of consumption and expenditure, i'm fine with that. i can recommend them some luxury english shoe makers.

methinks the american equivalents will get angry and reach for their guns when the self-induced rising living costs affect them.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-04 04:20:16)

2020-05-04 04:31:39
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Most people would notice little change in their cost of living if manufacturing were re-onshored.
The bulk of the financial benefit is taken as profit by the corporations and off-shored tax-free, the consumer doesn't really gain.

If the manufacturing cost of an iphone or imac increased by a factor of ten Apple would still be highly profitable, and there'd be a clear benefit in the money circulating locally and tax being paid on it instead of disappearing to China and Panama.

There's really little benefit in being swamped with cheap goods you still can't afford because you're on the dole or a zero hours contract.

Food production is onshore and thats currently remarkably cheap thanks to technology and mechanisation.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-05-04 04:32:14)

Fuck Israel
2020-05-04 04:34:27
uziq
Member
+496|3691
yeah, right, all those shareholders will accept a huge cut in their dividend. it's not like reductions in manufacturing costs and improved efficiencies/economies of scale haven't all seen amazing price reductions for the consumer in the past!

meanwhile on planet earth ...

food production is onshore? really? funny because the last time i looked at a fruit punnet or meat packet, half of it was from spain, italy, or further afield. and the stuff that is onshore uses foreign, soon to be illegal, labour.
2020-05-04 04:37:15
Larssen
Member
+99|2127
Eh, no. Removing offshoring would significantly drive up the cost in every industry. Margins are much smaller than you think.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-04 04:37:40)

2020-05-04 04:38:47
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Bad luck for the shareholders, they overbought without an eye to the future.

Apple's dividend ratio was 1.4% for 2018, not exactly generous, or the shareholders overbought.
Apple's payout ratio is around 20%, thats miserable. You'd have to be retarded to overbuy that one.
Fuck Israel
2020-05-04 04:40:36
uziq
Member
+496|3691
as i said, if people want to bring about the collapse of the global system and undergo a painful transformation, i'm all for it. but don't delude yourself to the consequences of your convictions. 'things will just get cheaper, it'll be fine'. LOL ok.

fully automated luxury communism! not tomorrow! now!
2020-05-04 04:46:20
Larssen
Member
+99|2127
Dilbert the hourly rate of some guy in middle of nowhere China is about 8-10x cheaper than the same guy in the west. Those costs are to the benefit or detriment of the consumer. The margins don't disappear into the CEOs bank account... it's so that companies can undercut competition.
2020-05-04 04:53:08
uziq
Member
+496|3691
it's fine, there will be a made in america iphone soon for $250 and everyone will be happy. steve jobs is dead anyway, he doesn't even need the superyacht.
2020-05-04 06:45:28
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert the hourly rate of some guy in middle of nowhere China is about 8-10x cheaper than the same guy in the west. Those costs are to the benefit or detriment of the consumer. The margins don't disappear into the CEOs bank account... it's so that companies can undercut competition.
If an iphone costs $10 or $100 to make it really doesn't matter to the overall price the consumer pays.

At this point China is cheaper because they're invested in modern equipment, cost of labour is rapidly falling away as their advantage.
Fuck Israel
2020-05-04 06:48:44
Larssen
Member
+99|2127
The iphone is expensive because of brand. Apple's position in that market is a luxury. Those conditions are not applicable to all industries.

Of course it's going to make a difference. A huge portion of china's population works in manual labour.
2020-05-04 06:50:59
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Apart from people being able to buy gadgets cheaper moving manufacturing to China has been a disaster for most economies.
The net effect has been negative.
Fuck Israel
2020-05-04 07:04:51
Larssen
Member
+99|2127
That is total nonsense.

From ship and car manufacturing to food trade and software development the net effect of globalisation has been overwhelmingly positive. Purchasing power in the west has gone up because of cheaper services and goods, wealth in developing countries has also increased providing more markets for luxury and high end goods exported by the west.

'Globalisation bad' is caveman logic

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-04 07:08:51)

2020-05-04 07:06:46
uziq
Member
+496|3691
in your protectionist view, yes.

globalism has been a boon to most of the world, what are you talking about? people in developing companies were given stable jobs, their local economies were built up, and people in the west had an endless stream of cheap and affordable consumer goods/clothes/toys; industries could source their basic components, electronics, processed materials etc at an infinitely cheaper rate. how can you describe the last 30 years of global trade as a 'net negative'? because your beloved country has lost its self-reliance and is now on its knees and exposed with the rest of the global order? you're rather hastily dismissing the last few generations of growth, prosperity and, frankly, western fucking ease because of the latest development, aren't you?

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-04 07:08:30)

2020-05-04 07:51:56
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Apart from people being able to buy gadgets cheaper moving manufacturing to China has been a disaster for most economies.
The net effect has been negative.
Yeah? I dunno. Quality of life for most people on the planet has risen pretty spectacularly as the cost of goods came down. Seems like a net positive.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-05-04 07:59:44
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3959
I don't know how anyone can look at the former industrial centers of the U.S. and say that our offshoring our manufacturing was a "spectacular success". It goes to show the backgrounds of the people here. Only white collar professionals would say that cheap products from China are worth the sacrifice.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-04 08:20:55
uziq
Member
+496|3691
most of the people buying and benefitting from the cheap products were the blue-collar working base, dipshit.
2020-05-04 08:28:54
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I don't know how anyone can look at the former industrial centers of the U.S. and say that our offshoring our manufacturing was a "spectacular success". It goes to show the backgrounds of the people here. Only white collar professionals would say that cheap products from China are worth the sacrifice.
It was a negative locally in the rust belt, sure, but globally it's been pretty awesome.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-05-04 08:29:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

uziq wrote:

most of the people buying and benefitting from the cheap products were the blue-collar working base, dipshit.
mac is a union guy
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-05-04 08:39:35
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3959

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I don't know how anyone can look at the former industrial centers of the U.S. and say that our offshoring our manufacturing was a "spectacular success". It goes to show the backgrounds of the people here. Only white collar professionals would say that cheap products from China are worth the sacrifice.
It was a negative locally in the rust belt, sure, but globally it's been pretty awesome.
It has been a disaster for the working classes of the western world.

The removal of manufacturing jobs have lead to an overall decrease in the value of labor in the west that has rippled throughout the economy. Low wage service jobs were not good replacements for the manufacturing jobs that went overseas.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-04 08:45:39
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3959

uziq wrote:

most of the people buying and benefitting from the cheap products were the blue-collar working base, dipshit.
Yeah they got cheap T.V.s and cellphones. And all it cost them was unionized manufacturing jobs.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-04 08:48:23
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I don't know how anyone can look at the former industrial centers of the U.S. and say that our offshoring our manufacturing was a "spectacular success". It goes to show the backgrounds of the people here. Only white collar professionals would say that cheap products from China are worth the sacrifice.
It was a negative locally in the rust belt, sure, but globally it's been pretty awesome.
It has been a disaster for the working classes of the western world.

The removal of manufacturing jobs have lead to an overall decrease in the value of labor in the west that has rippled throughout the economy. Low wage service jobs were not good replacements for the manufacturing jobs that went overseas.
Perhaps, but those people did not have a God given right to those particular jobs. It was theirs for as long as it made sense financially for the company that employed them. You want 3x the wages of someone in China? Ok, then you need 3x the productivity and quality to justify it. When they started writing work rules that purposefully slowed production and decreased efficiency they tied the noose around their own necks.

It wasn't even greed that drove it. It was global competition from places like Japan, and yes, China. Japanese automaking took advantage of automation first, and they produced a car without the myriad defects built into American made cars. If you want to blame anyone, blame the MBA's that tried to min/max every aspect of production (and still do). They are the ones that replaced steel with plastic in order to save a few pennies on shipping costs. They're the ones that set the design parameters for the engineers that called for bearings to wear out at 80,000 miles in order to force repairs. American car manufacturers realized along the way that they made more profit selling parts than they did new vehicles.

Now, none of those upper level issues are the fault of the line workers, but between the greed, laziness, and just piss poor management, the writing was on the wall as soon as any form of competition entered the market. Should the US government have stepped in and walled us off with tariffs? Why? So they could continue running their shitty companies? Then your average American consumer would be held hostage with only inferior products available. No, we're better off in the long run.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-05-04 08:56:59
uziq
Member
+496|3691
look at the cars they make in iran or the games consoles they make in brazil if you want to see what protecting your workers from the global marketplace or enforcing tariffs achieves.
2020-05-04 09:03:29
Larssen
Member
+99|2127
Anything electronics in brazil really. Try buying even just a phone charger in a store there. Not only is it weirdly expensive and does it suck, you'll be signing paperwork for 30 mins just to buy it.
2020-05-04 09:07:24
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3959

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

It was a negative locally in the rust belt, sure, but globally it's been pretty awesome.
It has been a disaster for the working classes of the western world.

The removal of manufacturing jobs have lead to an overall decrease in the value of labor in the west that has rippled throughout the economy. Low wage service jobs were not good replacements for the manufacturing jobs that went overseas.
Perhaps, but those people did not have a God given right to those particular jobs. It was theirs for as long as it made sense financially for the company that employed them. You want 3x the wages of someone in China? Ok, then you need 3x the productivity and quality to justify it. When they started writing work rules that purposefully slowed production and decreased efficiency they tied the noose around their own necks.

It wasn't even greed that drove it. It was global competition from places like Japan, and yes, China. Japanese automaking took advantage of automation first, and they produced a car without the myriad defects built into American made cars. If you want to blame anyone, blame the MBA's that tried to min/max every aspect of production (and still do). They are the ones that replaced steel with plastic in order to save a few pennies on shipping costs. They're the ones that set the design parameters for the engineers that called for bearings to wear out at 80,000 miles in order to force repairs. American car manufacturers realized along the way that they made more profit selling parts than they did new vehicles.

Now, none of those upper level issues are the fault of the line workers, but between the greed, laziness, and just piss poor management, the writing was on the wall as soon as any form of competition entered the market. Should the US government have stepped in and walled us off with tariffs? Why? So they could continue running their shitty companies? Then your average American consumer would be held hostage with only inferior products available. No, we're better off in the long run.
They do not have a God given right to good jobs and God knows I have little sympathy for them as human beings. But their government had a responsibility to protect the manufacturing base of the country and the livelihoods of its workers. Of course American manufacturers and other industries shamed themselves by going along with the financialization of their companies and the economy at large but that is an issue of internal regulation. American companies needed reforms and not a stab in the back which is what the blue collar manufacturing base got.

I'm not saying that we need to end globalism or that that would even be possible. But we just shouldn't have been so flippant about moving stuff or how we moved stuff overseas. And I am not even going to go into the irrationality of building up the economy of a hostile foreign nation like we did with China.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-04 09:08:25
uziq
Member
+496|3691
in the wide-view, competition in manufacturing is a Good Thing globally, anyway. anything driving increased efficiencies, lower waste/pollution, higher automation, etc, is frankly getting more and more people out of demeaning and often dangerous repetitive factory-line work, and is good for the environment. we need to reduce manufacturing and make it as lean and human/ecology friendly as possible. that's not going to happen when Joe Rustbelt insists on being paid the same real wage as he enjoyed before the 1970s oil crisis.

And I am not even going to go into the irrationality of building up the economy of a hostile foreign nation like we did with China.
it was understood, quite rationally, as something that would weaken their ideology and bring them into the global community. which, arguably, it did. china is now a major participator in world affairs. except now you don't like that either. now they're a bigger and better animal at capitalism. whoops!

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-04 09:10:15)

 

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