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uziq
Member
+199|1961

Larssen wrote:

Fighter jets like the F-35 and high tech drones are not built primarily with deployment in 'dustbowls' in the Middle East in mind. Or to fund the military industry for that matter. Maintaining escalation dominance in the 21st century is a real strategic concern and is keeping a lot of R&D going.
i'm poking fun at jay's own military background, not seriously suggesting the F-35 has a starring role in iraq. thanks for the pedantry, though. although it goes without saying that a country that produces mass amounts of armaments and makes huge military investments generally tends to find reasons to use them, too, or to sell them to other parties. it's like a bodybuilder being jacked on steroids: maintaining the spending becomes part of the life-blood of the nation.

the bidding and tendering for the F-35 is a good example of the way that huge arms corporations like lockheed or boeing are spread out across the states. it is a purposeful supply chain. many districts become reliant upon them and their jobs/local economy boost. there's a deep imbrication of huge federal-military projects and everyday political life.

and to say that the most expensive defence contract awarded in history, for the most expensive weapon ever built, has no implications with regards 'to fund[ing] the military industry' is a pretty fucking hot take, larssen. are you lost in your academic studies or policy-thinktank world or something? it involves a lot more than 'strategic concern' (look at US vs iran war games to see how instrumental fighter jets are, cough; and i'm sure a US vs china world war will be fought decisively with dog-fights and aerial bombing).



the point being that jay's claims that america isn't a state geared towards militarism is pretty shaky, at best. he is himself a person who came from a lower-income, non-university background, who went through the commonly accepted and widely used pathway of military service and deployment in order to gain a better income and education. if that isn't a militarised state, then frankly i don't know what is. in america it's easier to gain upwards social mobility by enlisting than it is by trying to get a college scholarship.

it seems to me that a lot of american life is geared, economically and politically, towards an almost constant state of war making and unquestioning acceptance of the military's central role in civic life. 'thank you for your service'.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-07 06:13:46)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,762|5280|USA

As an aside,
https://i.imgur.com/wmvG1no.png

Also can we please toss out the stupid flag lapel pins? It's such an insincere-looking affectation, but politicians are too terrified of being labeled unpatriotic or whatever for not having one. Awful.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
the fact that there's almost a socially conditioned response or 'polite' thing to say to soldiers says something, does it not? transfer the custom to another, faraway, exotic Other country and it could conceivably give you a chill. i can see the alarmist news anchor now talking about how everyone in Burma or Egypt or wherever lives in awe/fear of the military caste.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,762|5280|USA

It says a lot, actually.

It doesn't help that some people are raised to feel obligated to mumble that out as absentmindedly as they are when taking sacrament, or reciting the pledge in third grade. Sometimes reinforced by the "We should all be thankful! They volunteered JUST so you wouldn't have to be drafted" chide. As eyeroll-worthy as the "eat your entire [1200 calorie] meal because there's kids starving in Africa."

Yes, people enlist for honor. And. Nothing. Else!
uziq
Member
+199|1961
https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/12 … 69504?s=21

in other news, roger stone is either heavily medicated or railing a lot (a lot) of cocaine before his hearings.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,970|3866|London, England

uziq wrote:

i said all of that above in my post about the military-industrial complex and the political rigging of the F-35. but then you retorted that america is hardly some militarist state? seems like your defence spending and the close embedding of arms companies, the DoD and elected representatives says otherwise.
If we're a militarist state, then so are the UK and Australia since both have defense budgets in line with ours.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,970|3866|London, England

uziq wrote:

the fact that there's almost a socially conditioned response or 'polite' thing to say to soldiers says something, does it not? transfer the custom to another, faraway, exotic Other country and it could conceivably give you a chill. i can see the alarmist news anchor now talking about how everyone in Burma or Egypt or wherever lives in awe/fear of the military caste.
I personally find it annoying, but it's an overcompensation for the way veterans were treated when they returned home from Vietnam. Rather this than idiots spitting on conscripts.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+719|5193|United States of America
I've never actually said it to anyone cause it is a strange thing that seemed to start getting big during the Bush II admin. It's weird enough to be standing there as someone else says it.
uziq
Member
+199|1961

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i said all of that above in my post about the military-industrial complex and the political rigging of the F-35. but then you retorted that america is hardly some militarist state? seems like your defence spending and the close embedding of arms companies, the DoD and elected representatives says otherwise.
If we're a militarist state, then so are the UK and Australia since both have defense budgets in line with ours.
there's a lot more to it than % of spending. it's to do with the national culture, the way the national economy/industry is set-up (as quoted earlier, 10% of all america's manufacturing output is for the DoD), and the way that civic life is structured. something like in america's case, of young men joining the military and fighting in wars as a route to get through college, would seem in europe to be pretty fucking unusual. large swathes of people in the UK or australia do not have to take up arms in order to have a hope of bettering their lives with education.

military veterans are not put on pedestals or thrust forward at every sports game or public occasion here, either. we have days of remembrance for major conflicts, and that's about it. in america the military pageantry seems to seamlessly take over as soon as young boys and girls age past high-school football and cheerleading, to share similar public functions.

the UK spends far more on its healthcare system than it does on its military, regardless of your % of spending statistic. if there is anything like a 'national pride' or culture in the UK, it is based around pride in the NHS and what used to be called 'the welfare state'. i would much rather live in a country where this characterises and typifies the nation, rather than the military.

political careers and electioneering aren't based on 'keeping jobs in county' here in the same way that congresspeople or representatives will campaign essentially by proxy for a Lockheed or Boeing, in order to keep jobs in their district. a politician could conceivably lose their seat here for, say, not protecting the jobs of car plant workers, but missiles and attack helicopters? no.

america takes a lot of pride in its military. the military caste are accorded a lot of importance. bellicosity, aggression bordering on chauvinism, war-making -- all this seems pretty tightly woven up in the 'patriotism' of americans. i don't think patriotic australians quite have the same 'and if you don't agree with or wrong us we're gonna bomb your ass!' attitude as so many unthinking americans do.

if the 'america, fuck yeah!' attitude has been tempered and muted a bit since the calamities of the bush years in iraq/afghan, then perhaps you've finally regained some investment on that $10 trillion dollars.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-07 08:27:02)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,970|3866|London, England
It's not really as widespread as you think. Would you be surprised to know that the military pays for the privilege of sending an honor guard to games and for the troop recognition that is incorporated into nearly every sports broadcast? It comes out of their marketing/recruiting budget.

Whether you like it or not, people who have volunteered to serve in the military do deserve respect, but it should be no more or less than what police officers or firefighters or emergency medical workers in a pandemic zone deserve. They all joined a service where they may be asked to sacrifice their life for the greater good. If that's not worthy of respect, I don't know what is.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+199|1961
i don't not respect them, i have family in the military, after all. i was talking about a culture that has certain 'automatic' signs of respect and what perhaps that says about the role and influence of the military in everyday life.

i didn't know that about the military sending representatives to games. it makes sense.

i think it's probably most telling that we spend far more on healthcare and as a result our sense of a 'national culture' and self-image would list the NHS way, way above the british armed forces.

https://www.raconteur.net/chart/what-ar … t-proud-of
https://www.opinium.co.uk/nhs-tops-the- … tain-list/

national budgets are political decisions as much as economic ones. where you choose to distribute your national wealth, and in what proportion, creates your civic culture. america's huge military spending creates an inflated sense of militarism in everyday life. don't you have police departments full of humvees and APCs? fat overweight highway cops running around in body armour with combat belts?

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-07 08:56:32)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228

uziq wrote:

does calling it ‘wuhan flu’ make you feel better
I just don't feel like having to spell out corona virus. I don't care what it is called.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
so two words that won't auto-correct or give you squiggly typos lines on a phone, versus an unrecognised proper noun which your phone will try to autocorrect.

gotcha
SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i said all of that above in my post about the military-industrial complex and the political rigging of the F-35. but then you retorted that america is hardly some militarist state? seems like your defence spending and the close embedding of arms companies, the DoD and elected representatives says otherwise.
If we're a militarist state, then so are the UK and Australia since both have defense budgets in line with ours.
They don't.

As a percentage of GDP, the U.S. spends 3.2% vs the international average of 2.1%, U.K. 1.8%, Australia 1.9%. The only places with higher spending per GDP are Russia, Ukraine, and places in the Middle East. And while a little over 1% may not seem like much that works out to hundreds of billions of dollars.

A lot of U.S. military spending is also buried in other parts of the government too. For instance our nuclear weapons not not maintained by the DoD. The Department of Energy handles that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … penditures
SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228
Americans can't even really blame the Europeans for our bloated budget. Considering the size of Europe's economy, the diminutive state of Russian finances, and the fact that the Europeans only real threat is Russia, they don't need to add an extra GDP point to their budgets for more tanks to sit in storage. It's a failure of EU/NATO internal politics that Russia is chipping away at the east and not a budget issue. How American is to think we can throw money at such an issue as war and win anyway.

America's military budget is bloated because of the dummy 20 years of war in the Middle East we have had. I almost called it a Crusade but the Crusades actually hand easily understandable and tangible goals. "Recapture Jerusalem" is a winnable goal. "Make the world safe for democracy" ??? Our democracy isn't even safe at home. We aren't even safe from each other.

But please don't misunderstand me, I fully support high military spending if it allows me to watch people go boom on the internet while high safely in NJ.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228
I cucked a veteran once.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
the same guy you pissed your pants and crossed the road to avoid? big man.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228
Yeah that guy. What a memory.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
as a scholar of literature i pride myself on the ability to retain epigrams, aphorisms, quotations, perorations and anecdotes pertaining to cuckoldry. a famous literary genre, incidentally. ulysses is a cuck fiction.

back on topic, i’m pretty sure that the militaristic and chauvinistic attitude of america on the foreign stage is equally as responsible for school shooters and the everyday casual violence in america as marilyn manson, DOOM video games and rap music. your police forces routinely make peacetime streets look like warzones. all that money being pumped into the military and supplies filters down. are there really any other cultures on earth so explicitly geared towards violence and an almost perpetual sense of high-alert? right-wing groups denounce the ‘corrupting’ influence of hollywood, but say nothing about the films that glorify war, or glorify ‘american snipers’. your president pardons navy SEAL captains who shot little girls for blood sport. what sort of message does that send?

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-07 13:47:47)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228
The veteran is slow. It was noticable even back in high school. He would fit into my special education class. What would compel a decent looking college educated girl to pop out a kid with him is beyond me. You could probably say that I had every opportunity to breed her myself and I just didn't take the chance in front of me. That raises an important question though: would you really want to start a family with someone who makes it easy for you? Probably not. If a girl isn't on oral contraceptive she is probably stupid.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,762|5280|USA

How much budge room do you actually have here when joining a work force with an IQ cap.

Also, "breed her" like you're talking about horses. Solid husband material there. Also, you'd be a constant, shadowy threat looming over the family dog.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+223|2228
I never think about it but you do make me wonder what role I have in her husband's marriage anxieties. Almost definitely not a big one but I am sure any associations with me are uncomfortable.

Like you're watching television with your wife and a the NYC news comes on. You see a story showing a robbery suspect getting arrested in Harlem and all of the sudden you and wife are seeing my doppelganger getting lead out of the a NYPD precinct in handcuffs. And for a brief moment you remember your wife can never fully be trusted. Meanwhile what I am up to? Drugging myself and making toys.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
what a wonderful world.
uziq
Member
+199|1961
https://www.theamericanconservative.com … eerleader/

lol this site is fun. what was that larsssen was saying about the f-35 example not having anything to do with funding of the military industry? no conflict of interests whatsoever, of course. it's a 'strategic' necessity.

“Here he is having been an advocate for it, having pressed it, having pushed for it …  and now he’s going to work for the company that makes the aircraft, that just, to me, stinks to high heavens,” retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who served as special assistant to Colin Powell when he led the Joint Chiefs, told POGO.

Dunford’s Rolodex of Pentagon decision-makers is valuable to defense contractors, and with just over four months to “cool off,” many of those relationships will likely be intact.

Lockheed Martin was the top recipient of Department of Defense dollars in fiscal year 2019, taking in over$48 billion, according to government data. The company spent over $13 million lobbying the federal government in 2019, according to data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics.
yea, i think talking about the military-industrial complex is still pretty relevant.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-08 03:05:49)

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