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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,793|5035|949

uziq wrote:

that's a bit high concept for my mid-day coffee.

the labour less future doesn't need to involve misery -- the problem is that capitalism requires a surplus population outside of the workforce to keep the labour market in basic structural shape. these people are defined by chronic un- or underemployment and poor education, not by being in some blissful 'labour less' state.
Capitalism also requires consumers, of which you can't be if you don't have money to spend. Economists have been pondering this question since the start of the industrial revolution. I think Keynes was one who thought formerly fully employed workers would turn to broader, humanitarian pursuits in the absence of the need to work. Capitalists have also been forced to ponder this question, from Ford being asked, "How are these machines going to buy your cars?" and even recently, Zuckerbot understanding that robots won't "buy the products advertised on facebook".

I always raise an eyebrow when Capitalists float or back an idea like UBI - it's an implicit acknowledgement that the current system and trajectory are not in the best economic interest of the masses. It's also a sign of weakness or fear - they know they must give up some concessions, and their idea is to give back a small amount instead of structural change.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,751|5175|USA

Would anyone be surprised? Of course there will be people who are dumb spenders. But making things more accessible will at least give a wider array of people a better chance at clawing their way out of dire straits. "A family trying to decide between food and medicine? Forget those guys, other poor people might use tax returns to buy a Steelers shirt or something." I dunno, man.
uziq
Member
+175|1855
lol this viral vox pop about the US healthcare system
https://twitter.com/ioanmarcjones/statu … 5724145664

people in the UK are realllllllly not keen on US medical/pharma/insurance companies buying their way into the NHS.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,751|5175|USA

I've had some of the weirdest conversations with Americans who deflect the topic from domestic issues into UK's "failed NHS." Then they proudly gloat about how we will bail it out.
uziq
Member
+175|1855
the NHS is the best thing the UK has ever done, collectively. it's an absolute human achievement.

sadly struggling because it's been privatised in chunks for the last 15-20 years. highly complicated semi-private, semi-public arrangements, workers brought in from outside on contract, doctor's practices forming business-like arrangements, etc. typical conservative stuff.

i will take a creaky NHS being stretched to the limits due to financial cuts/brexit over US health care. a n y  day of the week.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,751|5175|USA

I may have mentioned somewhere, but one of the latest openers I've been subject to in political conversations is chain mailer fodder about how Adam Schiff looks like a psychopath, or the Gerber baby, or Aleister Crowley. And it's always brought up with such startling, spitting vitriol. It's honestly like being doused in cold water.

Talk about setting the bar low for a smear campaign. But I guess it's reaching the intended audience. People who won't stay on topic for five seconds when it isn't going their way.

Random UK interviewee: "Wow! Poor Americans!"
Random American interviewee: "Well it's their fault for not saving $800,000."
uziq
Member
+175|1855
the whole world loves to rub its hands at how broken the US is, because we've had to suffer big macs and that damned rap music for most of recent history.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4509|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I've had some of the weirdest conversations with Americans who deflect the topic from domestic issues into UK's "failed NHS." Then they proudly gloat about how we will bail it out.
Functioning socialism seems to be beyond some people's comprehension.

Lack of funding and allowing in commercial capital are what have fucked it.

That said ever expanding services mean no health system can deliver unlimited treatment forever.
When the NHS was set up cancer treatment was a soft pillow and a massive dose of morphine, its more expensive now.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1855
the crippling cost of social care is pension and retirement age care. don't blame cancer patients for high-tech cures. one can hardly apportion blame to a thirty-three year old with a metastasis that proves a public inconvenience. in an ironic way, we've become too good at caring for health. everyone is getting old now and it's vastly more costly than a quick hop to hospital for 2 weeks of hospital with pneumonia before the end.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4509|eXtreme to the maX
It was just one example, when the NHS was founded ~1% of people survived to retirement age (I think), mostly they died cheaply before that.
Now they're cured of multiple terminal illnesses in their 70s and 80s at huge cost.

Anecdotally neither of my parents has paid a penny in tax for 30 years and have been cured of multiple issues which would have killed people 50 years ago. Its not sustainable.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,620|4191|Catherine Black
oh no we should do away with making people not die when they're poor because we're too good at curing disease
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
uziq
Member
+175|1855
i agree. charity starts at home, dilbert. macbeth can hook you up, he's an established poisoner.
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,620|4191|Catherine Black
I've had some godawful experiences with the NHS, usually human errors and over-crowded GPs. It's not perfect, far from it, but it's so much better than paying $2,500 to get an ambulance ride

Chad, a 36 year old American, between jobs, is diagnosed with leukaemia. He and four of his family members go bankrupt during his treatment.
James, a 36 year old Brit, is diagnosed with leukaemia. He pays for the parking at the hospital.
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
uziq
Member
+175|1855
considering how much tax you've paid in your lifetime, and your status as a lowly scot crowding at the teet of the health-giving english sow, i'd say the NHS has been fucking excellent to you. you're probably already about -£40,000 in overall balance.

if the GP's surgeries are crowded, i recommend your compatriots stop fucking eating deep-fried mars bars and necking irn-bru. you pasty drug-addicted wasters. isn't scotland like the unhealthiest country in the western world? or the one with the shortest life expectancy or something? christ the fact you guys get FREE healthcare ...

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-03 16:08:10)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4509|eXtreme to the maX

Finray wrote:

oh no we should do away with making people not die when they're poor because we're too good at curing disease
At some point it becomes unaffordable, and I didn't say the poor should have to cop it.

I've certainly had and been aware of shitty service from the NHS, and when things go wrong no-one is accountable.
At least its free.

I've also been in GPs surgeries where not one person waiting was english-speaking, apart from me obviously.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-03 16:32:09)

Epstein didn't kill himself
SuperJail Warden
Member
+199|2123
If America ever gets universal healthcare, our capitalist will turn into a way to pump government money into crappy private healthcare providers. You go to the corporate doctor and their solution to whatever is making you sick will be a opiates and a sick pass for work.
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,620|4191|Catherine Black

uziq wrote:

considering how much tax you've paid in your lifetime, and your status as a lowly scot crowding at the teet of the health-giving english sow, i'd say the NHS has been fucking excellent to you. you're probably already about -£40,000 in overall balance.

if the GP's surgeries are crowded, i recommend your compatriots stop fucking eating deep-fried mars bars and necking irn-bru. you pasty drug-addicted wasters. isn't scotland like the unhealthiest country in the western world? or the one with the shortest life expectancy or something? christ the fact you guys get FREE healthcare ...
Eh I think you'd be surprised man. I pay my NI contributions, and have done for over a decade. Never had any real expensive procedures or medications, I think the most expense would be a few courses of SSRIs and getting my ears flushed (yay narrow ear canals)
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
uziq
Member
+175|1855
you've been born.

SSRIs cost several times more than the basic prescription. and isn't the basic prescription free in scotland and wales?

never had a dentist's appointment? do you think the basic tiers of charging associated with dental work covers the total costs of dentistry? how quaint.

never had any jabs or immunisations? you think all that was free?

not to mention the sheer amount of resources that are on standby, waiting so that they're available as and when you need them. your local GPs surgery, your local hospital, the ambulance service ... all that has an annual cost of upkeep.

national insurance is, what, 12% above £175 a week or whatever it is? i'm assuming you've made about £400 a week in non-graduate work. you are easily paying under a grand a year for national insurance for being in employment full-time. bearing in mind that isn't a direct NHS tax. it's mostly for state pensions, unemployment/dole, disability services, etc. let's not even get STARTED on the amount scots rinse disability and unemployment ... have you ever claimed benefits for being unemployed, finray?

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-04 02:12:23)

uziq
Member
+175|1855
besides, it seems like there's a huge story about the absolute fucking mis-management of the NHS in Scotland by ... the scottish nationalist party. KPIs have dived under their leadership, but it's not something anyone really talks about, because, you know, sturgeon's one function is to sit and snipe at westminster and make cases for scottish nationalism.

i would LOVE to see scotland run its own NHS with its own balance. you can't even manage one properly with a massive money-flow from england!
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,620|4191|Catherine Black

uziq wrote:

you've been born.

SSRIs cost several times more than the basic prescription. and isn't the basic prescription free in scotland and wales?

never had a dentist's appointment? do you think the basic tiers of charging associated with dental work covers the total costs of dentistry? how quaint.

never had any jabs or immunisations? you think all that was free?

not to mention the sheer amount of resources that are on standby, waiting so that they're available as and when you need them. your local GPs surgery, your local hospital, the ambulance service ... all that has an annual cost of upkeep.

national insurance is, what, 12% above £175 a week or whatever it is? i'm assuming you've made about £400 a week in non-graduate work. you are easily paying under a grand a year for national insurance for being in employment full-time. bearing in mind that isn't a direct NHS tax. it's mostly for state pensions, unemployment/dole, disability services, etc. let's not even get STARTED on the amount scots rinse disability and unemployment ... have you ever claimed benefits for being unemployed, finray?
I mean, you're listing things that most people go through, I was listing things on top of that which would be out of the ordinary.

oh aye if you're including benefits then I'm definitely in the red with the govt.
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
Finray
Hup! Dos, Tres, Cuatro
+2,620|4191|Catherine Black
hahaha i love shit like that, politicians actually being honest
https://i.imgur.com/qwWEP9F.png
SuperJail Warden
Member
+199|2123
This might not be related to the Scots but I have noticed that in America poor white people are unique among the poor in their desire to dismantle the social safety net they rely on. Poor black people complain about the police and CIA cocaine but they don't go around campaigning to the welfare state or convince themselves their government transfers are coming from somewhere else.

This is probably why liberals care cup is empty for poor white people. You try to help them and they hate you for it. They are like dogs at a veterinarian office. Too dumb to realize you are trying to help them.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,751|5175|USA

I think that might be somewhat of an incomplete truth. It's like you're playing a game of connect-the-dots where you just draw a straight line from the start point to the end point.

There are a lot of anecdotes passed around by white people who couldn't find work, who had their backs against the wall, but were turned away from aid because they were able-bodied and employable. There are others who were struggling to keep their business afloat on the trail end of the recession who said they were fined because they couldn't afford their local, unnecessarily bloated insurance package. It's not hard to see why these stories would engender some amount of buzz and resentment. In recent years, Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment was spun to mean everyday Americans in general.*

On an individual basis, I've never given food to a person who resented me for it.

*Still probably not the best way to steal supporters from your opponent.
uziq
Member
+175|1855

SuperJail Warden wrote:

This might not be related to the Scots but I have noticed that in America poor white people are unique among the poor in their desire to dismantle the social safety net they rely on. Poor black people complain about the police and CIA cocaine but they don't go around campaigning to the welfare state or convince themselves their government transfers are coming from somewhere else.

This is probably why liberals care cup is empty for poor white people. You try to help them and they hate you for it. They are like dogs at a veterinarian office. Too dumb to realize you are trying to help them.
this is nietzsche's concept of ressentiment in one, and his main elaboration of the master-slave hegelian dynamic.

not coincidentally it's, in his view, the basis of the christian worldview, the compensatory logic of 'being rewarded in heaven' and envying the rich and powerful as 'sinners' in life. it's also why charity and handouts are received vituperatively, because by giving charity you are becoming someone's master (witness beneficent philanthropists 'doing good works' and massaging their own ego/soul), and by accepting charity you are becoming someone's slave (in hegelian terms, obviously, not literally).

the american dream myth of 'making it big' is a neat ideological blindfold for the underclass. what's that quote, variously attributed, about nobody in america being poor - everyone is just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire? etc etc

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-04 06:47:27)

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