The country will get the govt it deserves, and thats Boris.
Goodbye Britain.
Goodbye Britain.
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So who are you voting for?uziq wrote:
everything to play for, but the conservatives are quite comfortably ahead and their tremendous fuckups are, a la trump and his followers, only entrenching his base. i can see labour and the libdems trading a few swing seats and the conservatives getting a majority. 5 years of johnson and postpartum depression. can't wait.
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very good question. i will tactically vote, as one is forced to do, to try and defeat the conservatives in my constituency. i can’t stand corbyn and never have been able to stomach him as a leader; cheltenham historically has gone libdem, but i don’t know how the current state of the party is on the ground there.
i am absolutely against boris johnson and simply
can’t see the point in giving his bunch of buffoons a fresh 5-year mandate. to have to suffer through 5 years of mixed policy where they build a few hospitals here and there and hike up national debt, after having just lived through 10 years of the conservatives stressing the opposite, austerity, seems to me like utter madness. and i think senior cabinet officials like priti patel are borderline monstrous. we are braced for a long period of economic pain with a bunch of ugly ideologues in power. i could take one without the other, but both at once is a bit much.
this vote is clearly ‘about’ brexit but i have stronger views on what the next few years are going to be like to actually have to live and work through than on the brexit question. the EU have already said that current british citizens will be allowed to apply to keep their EU citizenship, so at this point i don’t give much of a toss about it.
i am absolutely against boris johnson and simply
can’t see the point in giving his bunch of buffoons a fresh 5-year mandate. to have to suffer through 5 years of mixed policy where they build a few hospitals here and there and hike up national debt, after having just lived through 10 years of the conservatives stressing the opposite, austerity, seems to me like utter madness. and i think senior cabinet officials like priti patel are borderline monstrous. we are braced for a long period of economic pain with a bunch of ugly ideologues in power. i could take one without the other, but both at once is a bit much.
this vote is clearly ‘about’ brexit but i have stronger views on what the next few years are going to be like to actually have to live and work through than on the brexit question. the EU have already said that current british citizens will be allowed to apply to keep their EU citizenship, so at this point i don’t give much of a toss about it.
Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 00:28:25)
Excluding tactical voting I'd go Lib-Dem.
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the libdems ideologically are too often just handmaidens to the conservatives. they are blandly centrist on everything that matters, i.e. the economy, and pander mostly to tokenistic, bien pensant middle-class views on 'social' issues. they are not substantively different from the conservatives. anyone who voted here in the last decade will remember them as the party of clegg and the coalition ... which was the party that campaigned proclaiming much, and quickly delivered little. the libdems went hard for the student/young adult vote when the conservatives proposed tripling tuition fees - vote for us and end this austerity madness was their line - and then immediately gave in and approved the tripling of fees.
they essentially won a huge surge of votes on a single issue and then abandoned that demographic/issue. staggering. there's an incredible moment in cameron's recent autobiography in which he recounts george osborne advising nick clegg against the libdems' own decision. just unbelievable incompetence, really. (i was already beyond the point of being affected by tuition fee changes so no horse in the race, fyi.)
the libdems are currently in the absurd position of even turning moderate remainers such as myself off: their view of europe is that essentially it's fine and we should just forget this whole brexit thing and continue on with 'business as usual'. i just cannot understand any party that really thinks more of the current european consensus on economics is the best path.
and 'excluding tactical voting' is a bit of a nonsense phrase considering that's all we have here with FPTP. having a hung/minority parliament where tiny parties such as the DUP and SNP actually wield a voice and some ability to veto things is a relative novelty. as soon as a party wins a majority this time around the whole idea of 'vote in the representatives who best represent you' will be bollocks again.
they essentially won a huge surge of votes on a single issue and then abandoned that demographic/issue. staggering. there's an incredible moment in cameron's recent autobiography in which he recounts george osborne advising nick clegg against the libdems' own decision. just unbelievable incompetence, really. (i was already beyond the point of being affected by tuition fee changes so no horse in the race, fyi.)
the libdems are currently in the absurd position of even turning moderate remainers such as myself off: their view of europe is that essentially it's fine and we should just forget this whole brexit thing and continue on with 'business as usual'. i just cannot understand any party that really thinks more of the current european consensus on economics is the best path.
and 'excluding tactical voting' is a bit of a nonsense phrase considering that's all we have here with FPTP. having a hung/minority parliament where tiny parties such as the DUP and SNP actually wield a voice and some ability to veto things is a relative novelty. as soon as a party wins a majority this time around the whole idea of 'vote in the representatives who best represent you' will be bollocks again.
Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 01:37:03)
If a vote for the Lib Dems were a wasted vote then I'd vote for whoever were likely to defeat the Cons.
Simple enough?
Simple enough?
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which is precisely what i said in the first line of my answer. i dunno lol
anyway, twitter just banned all political adverts. i guess they want the good PR points before the law explicitly bans them or hits them with expensive and cumbersome reforms.Larssen wrote:
As for political adverts - I don't think it's realistic to expect politics to separate itself from social networks. Nor would it be healthy in a time when it is more important than ever to bring high politics to the people in more visible ways.
the twitter ceo's thread:
https://twitter.com/jack/status/1189634360472829952
(more in the thread).A political message earns reach when people decide to follow an account or retweet. Paying for reach removes that decision, forcing highly optimized and targeted political messages on people. We believe this decision should not be compromised by money.
Internet political ads present entirely new challenges to civic discourse: machine learning-based optimization of messaging and micro-targeting, unchecked misleading information, and deep fakes. All at increasing velocity, sophistication, and overwhelming scale.
For instance, it‘s not credible for us to say: “We’re working hard to stop people from gaming our systems to spread misleading info, buuut if someone pays us to target and force people to see their political ad…well...they can say whatever they want!
it's almost like everything i said over the last two pages has been agreed with by the owner of one of the world's biggest social networks. good.
Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 15:16:50)
I'm curious to see how that would work in practice and if it will be effective. Trump didn't just win out because his campaign used algorithm targetting, that lends far too much credit to his staffers. The target audience was bombarded by false advertising for years from various media sources as well.
While the sentiment is commendable it's like pushing water up a hill. The use of machine learning in advertising, search engines, video platforms & social media also unlocked the possibility of its abuse for propaganda purposes. Banning only political ads on 1 platform isn't going to do much. Even if all of them were to ban this type of advertising, I seriously doubt that would somehow remediate the problem as the entire navigation of the internet by users is already managed through algorithms.
While the sentiment is commendable it's like pushing water up a hill. The use of machine learning in advertising, search engines, video platforms & social media also unlocked the possibility of its abuse for propaganda purposes. Banning only political ads on 1 platform isn't going to do much. Even if all of them were to ban this type of advertising, I seriously doubt that would somehow remediate the problem as the entire navigation of the internet by users is already managed through algorithms.
the margins in some swing states were ridiculously small. the trump campaign spent a disproportionate amount of money in digital campaigning in those states. they accessed cherrypicked lists of voters most susceptible, which involved a lot of shady behind the scenes wrangling to get.
i’m not even raising conspiratorial points about trump’s victory. my point is this is the new normal. this mode of campaigning is hugely more effective than taking out blanket ads in the mass media. and it is all hidden from scrutiny, both its methods and its funding. bad bad bad.
facebook and google have both pulled political ads and content on their platform before. see the irish referendum on europe, for instance. so clearly some of the idealistic young boffins there see the point in it. not sure why you are so skeptical. i’m going to go with the people who designed these systems’ wariness about their ability to influence human decision making. they have just spent ten years designing the most addictive, attention-grabbing, reaction-eliciting mechanisms, after all.
i’m not even raising conspiratorial points about trump’s victory. my point is this is the new normal. this mode of campaigning is hugely more effective than taking out blanket ads in the mass media. and it is all hidden from scrutiny, both its methods and its funding. bad bad bad.
facebook and google have both pulled political ads and content on their platform before. see the irish referendum on europe, for instance. so clearly some of the idealistic young boffins there see the point in it. not sure why you are so skeptical. i’m going to go with the people who designed these systems’ wariness about their ability to influence human decision making. they have just spent ten years designing the most addictive, attention-grabbing, reaction-eliciting mechanisms, after all.
I just don't see this sufficiently addressing root causes, it merely fights off some symptoms. Ultimately the misuse of AI & machine learning is the issue. Let's not kid ourselves, political campaigns and interest groups will not just sit back now and twiddle their thumbs because twitter decided to pull the option of securing paid ad space. They will find ways around this to still benefit from these tools and you've seen an example in the "100% Boris" comments.
On a larger scale it's about questions of campaign ethics and user awareness. Perhaps countries themselves should have clearer guidelines and rules on what is and isn't allowed during their national election cycles. I believe there's several countries which have ethics committees on political campaigns, that would be a start.
On a larger scale it's about questions of campaign ethics and user awareness. Perhaps countries themselves should have clearer guidelines and rules on what is and isn't allowed during their national election cycles. I believe there's several countries which have ethics committees on political campaigns, that would be a start.
Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-31 07:01:06)
news item on this topic from linked start-point (17:30-ff)
every single advisory body, legal council and parliamentary committee responsible for electoral law have said that current law/regulations are hopeless against tech. elections are basically broken at the moment without adequate rules and guidance.
every single advisory body, legal council and parliamentary committee responsible for electoral law have said that current law/regulations are hopeless against tech. elections are basically broken at the moment without adequate rules and guidance.
Last edited by uziq (2019-10-31 14:23:23)
so today, freshly anointed by a completely diplomatically insensible move from trump, farage has said that he will run against the conservatives if they don't back his 'no deal' vision.
in the same day, johnson has again trumpeted 'his' deal as 'ready from the oven' and great to go.
farage called it 'the worst deal'.
bearing in mind these two groups at this point already represent the very most right-wing, most limited, most extreme interpretation of brexit possible. and they are now bashing heads over the issue.
what was that you were saying again dilbert about 'the people' knowing clearly what they were voting for? and giving a clear mandate?
in the same day, johnson has again trumpeted 'his' deal as 'ready from the oven' and great to go.
farage called it 'the worst deal'.
bearing in mind these two groups at this point already represent the very most right-wing, most limited, most extreme interpretation of brexit possible. and they are now bashing heads over the issue.
what was that you were saying again dilbert about 'the people' knowing clearly what they were voting for? and giving a clear mandate?
Nope, never said that.
'The people' voted for Brexit with no idea of whether there would even be a deal or what it could look like, I said this all before.
The average moron has no understanding of how trade works.
People like you trying to deduce what deal people had in their heads when they voted for Brexit are on a road to nowhere - like the people who voted for Brexit.
Most likely they had an episode of Eastenders or the latest headline from The Sun bouncing around as they put an X in the box.
'The people' voted for Brexit with no idea of whether there would even be a deal or what it could look like, I said this all before.
The average moron has no understanding of how trade works.
People like you trying to deduce what deal people had in their heads when they voted for Brexit are on a road to nowhere - like the people who voted for Brexit.
Most likely they had an episode of Eastenders or the latest headline from The Sun bouncing around as they put an X in the box.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/elizabe … hange.html
And here we see one of the unintended effects of banning political ads outright. Now there will be a debate over what constitutes a 'political' ad and when censorship is warranted.
And here we see one of the unintended effects of banning political ads outright. Now there will be a debate over what constitutes a 'political' ad and when censorship is warranted.
... and that is a debate entirely worth having?
are you saying that letting political parties lie outright to swing elections via social media is an ‘acceptable price’ for having the internet fulfill whatever naive libertarian dreams you have as a hangover from the dot-com boom?
information doesn’t want to be free, i’m sorry, it just piles up in the databases of unaccountable billionaires.
are you saying that letting political parties lie outright to swing elections via social media is an ‘acceptable price’ for having the internet fulfill whatever naive libertarian dreams you have as a hangover from the dot-com boom?
information doesn’t want to be free, i’m sorry, it just piles up in the databases of unaccountable billionaires.
Twitter is a commercial organisation, they can do whatever they want, you're free to not use their service.
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that line is pretty much the first thing anyone says. the problem is that these 'commercial organisations' want to be media organisations, which are subject to broadcasting regulations and suchlike. it's not exactly so simple as saying 'if you don't like their product, don't use it'. they want to be one-hit news aggregation sites. hence the argument of breaking up big tech or introducing regulations. they are no longer single-use commercial enterprises; they are 'platforms'.
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/ … 3967932416
we live in very strange times.
10 downing street blocked the publication of a report on russia's interference in elections.
PM's top advisor dominic cummings worked in russia in the 90s, and insiders have it that he is blocking the report.
conservatives released, and semi-apologised for, a doctored video of labour leaders
boris abandoned promise to give MPs vote on transition extension
a report reveals they have built 0 houses out of 200K pledged
rees-mogg blames Grenfell victims and andrew bridgen doubled-down and said they lacked intelligence (both have now apologised)
johnson has advised all his MPs to 'sign no pledges' about their campaign promises re: public spending and the NHS (i.e. no intention to follow through on their electioneering)
they have temporarily banned fracking because it's perceived as a PR disaster
we live in very strange times.
10 downing street blocked the publication of a report on russia's interference in elections.
PM's top advisor dominic cummings worked in russia in the 90s, and insiders have it that he is blocking the report.
conservatives released, and semi-apologised for, a doctored video of labour leaders
boris abandoned promise to give MPs vote on transition extension
a report reveals they have built 0 houses out of 200K pledged
rees-mogg blames Grenfell victims and andrew bridgen doubled-down and said they lacked intelligence (both have now apologised)
johnson has advised all his MPs to 'sign no pledges' about their campaign promises re: public spending and the NHS (i.e. no intention to follow through on their electioneering)
they have temporarily banned fracking because it's perceived as a PR disaster
Sounds like the country is in safe hands and the transition to American control and profit-making should go smoothly.
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sounds like the conservatives are genuinely spooked about their prospects.
farage has had a volte face and is now running brexit party candidates against the conservatives (ah, the sweet irony of pandering to the far-right populists and then having them tear you to pieces after you’ve already despoiled your own ‘moderate’ party. beautiful!) quite scuppers the comfortable assumption that the ukip-brexit bloc had been neatly folded into Tory-voting safe seats. personally i can’t see a revived brexit party ever attaining real parliamentary relevancy, but it definitely doesn’t help johnson.
labour have consistently performed better in elections and confounded the polls since corbyn has been leader. seems there’s a decent amount of grassroots politics, activism and voter discretion that is pouring into their vote, beneath the media’s notice.
the libdems are rejuvenated by coming out as a hard remainer option. controversial, and debatable, but it’s going to give them an actual reason to exist (like in the only other recent election in which they attained any relevance, and a coalition, where they opted for a radical rejection of university policies... ahem).
the nationalist parties in northern ireland, scotland and wales have all been energised (and rightly so) by the conservatives treating them as irrelevancies, their borders as bargaining tools, their representation in negotiations as piffle.
the conservatives have signed a death pact with the hallowed ‘Workington man’ over this single issue and it looks like they’ve backed themselves into a corner. it doesn’t help that their optics (risible term) have been and continue to be terrible during actual election campaigns: May was a walking polling disaster on the trail and people like rees-mogg and the ERG are publicity cancer.
farage has had a volte face and is now running brexit party candidates against the conservatives (ah, the sweet irony of pandering to the far-right populists and then having them tear you to pieces after you’ve already despoiled your own ‘moderate’ party. beautiful!) quite scuppers the comfortable assumption that the ukip-brexit bloc had been neatly folded into Tory-voting safe seats. personally i can’t see a revived brexit party ever attaining real parliamentary relevancy, but it definitely doesn’t help johnson.
labour have consistently performed better in elections and confounded the polls since corbyn has been leader. seems there’s a decent amount of grassroots politics, activism and voter discretion that is pouring into their vote, beneath the media’s notice.
the libdems are rejuvenated by coming out as a hard remainer option. controversial, and debatable, but it’s going to give them an actual reason to exist (like in the only other recent election in which they attained any relevance, and a coalition, where they opted for a radical rejection of university policies... ahem).
the nationalist parties in northern ireland, scotland and wales have all been energised (and rightly so) by the conservatives treating them as irrelevancies, their borders as bargaining tools, their representation in negotiations as piffle.
the conservatives have signed a death pact with the hallowed ‘Workington man’ over this single issue and it looks like they’ve backed themselves into a corner. it doesn’t help that their optics (risible term) have been and continue to be terrible during actual election campaigns: May was a walking polling disaster on the trail and people like rees-mogg and the ERG are publicity cancer.
Last edited by uziq (2019-11-06 05:29:44)
Half the population is below average intelligence, don't forget that.
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They don't generate anythinguziq wrote:
that line is pretty much the first thing anyone says. the problem is that these 'commercial organisations' want to be media organisations, which are subject to broadcasting regulations and suchlike. it's not exactly so simple as saying 'if you don't like their product, don't use it'. they want to be one-hit news aggregation sites. hence the argument of breaking up big tech or introducing regulations. they are no longer single-use commercial enterprises; they are 'platforms'.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Ruh roh!
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polls are quite meaningless in this election. careful or you’ll sound like a democrat pre-trump.