BF2S Forums Australian politics thread.

militant islam was explicitly fascist. nazism gave it a political economy and made it an organising principle, rather than a set of clerical-theological doctrines.

it was the nazis that gave muslim nationalism its anti-semitism, conceiving of israel as the cause of all their troubles.

you can read this in most popular histories of islamic terrorism.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-29 07:58:09)

an unbiased source doesn’t exist to you, dilbert, because you think jews have poisoned the well.

you talk about the ‘arabs’ as if there’s been a pan-arab political movement from which radical islam sprung. total nonsense, of course. how many arab countries today extend a hand to palestine?

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 00:36:49)

i literally edited it out when i saw that the guy was jewish because i can't be bothered to argue over the meaning or validity of a book with someone who hasn't read it and will refute it because the author is a jew. if you can't see how far down the rabbithole you are with that thinking, then i can't help you. i tend to read books rather than look at their authors' foreskin.

fyi the guy has won both a macarthur genius fellowship and a guggenheim grant - two of the biggest awards that anyone in the cultural or academic sphere can be awarded in america. the book was published by a serious NY publishing house, and, given its hugely controversial content, was no doubt gone at by an army of fact-checkers and editorial staff. but no, it's jewish proganda and revisionism! luckily books have bibliographies and citations and you can apprise and accept/refute them as you please. that is, if you're not a crank.

ironically the book makes no real claims for israel or zionism, it's about the history of radical islam as a political entity, and a close study of the muslim brotherhood. the book's real ambit is that islam suffers from a deficiency of critical middle-class thinkers today, and supposed 'celebrated' moderates like tariq ramadan, who were feted by the west's universities as a 'good' muslim intellectual, are actually speaking two languages and inciting radicals. hardly zionist conspiracy theory, is it?

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-30 01:38:46)

go read a book for once in your life. no one ever said that the nazis were the inventors of historic enmity between islam and jews (or christians, for that matter). it was about the organisation of an explicitly political, not to say totalitarian-fascist, brand of islam that conceived of itself as a political party. which very quickly led to an era of extremist terrorism and violence in the name of political, rather than theological, grounds. european fascism and anti-semitic thought as it was propagated by the nazis gave incipient movements in places like egypt an organizing basis.

the entire concept of nationalism and nationhood is an idea exported by 19th century europeans. islamic terrorism is political violence more than religious violence.

you're very much reading what you want to read because your understanding of history seems to be one grand brush-stroke in which 'jews and evangelicals are all trying to lead us towards their apocalypse'. not exactly deep reading, is it?

i mean, paul berman can be a bit of a gadly, but he is not a 'fox news anchor'.

he's also not a neo con: he was a vocal critic of bush?

a murdoch acolyte? what does that mean, he's published in a few papers owned by murdoch?

can't believe i'm even having to defend the character of a writer i don't even care about or have a stake in. it's just one of several popular history books published recently that cover that aspect of islamic terrorism's history.

Paul Berman wrote:

I approved on principle the overthrow of Saddam

Paul Berman wrote:

(anti-Zionism that its) "true origin ... is anti-Semitism, the assumption that the Jews are the center of the world and therefore the center of the world's evil.

Think I've heard enough from this guy thanks.

Please find someone to support your argument who:
- Isn't jewish
- Isn't a neo-con
- Isn't a Murdoch acolyte

Paul Berman failed the first two tests.

Or can I quote Mein Kampf and the Teachings of the Elders of Zion as unbiased sources?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Or can I quote Mein Kampf and the Teachings of the Elders of Zion as unbiased sources?

these books are published by academics, researchers and journalists. people who have to cite their sources. books that are edited. fact-checked.

i'm sorry that they have a fatally different interpretation to you, viz. not virulently hating jews, but to say that they are on the same order as 'teh teachings of the elders of zion', which is a proven forgery and would not withstand any academic scrutiny ... oh forget it.

i immediately regretted linking a jewish writer on the subject, and you've shown precisely why. well done.

that is how dilbert does think.

i mean the fact the guy likens a published book, which i only raised as it was the first to come to my memory, as akin to linking the protocols of the elders of zion, says all you need to say. it's actually precisely part of the crisis in truth that we have nowadays, where people either cannot (or choose not to) discriminate between the credibility of information. we live in a world where people can equate books, even modest books of polemic that can be disagreed with and argued against, are dismissed as 'neo-con murdoch-propaganda'. even if an expert's credentials are sufficiently established -- you can just dismiss experts!!! it's so handy. even better if they are jewish.

Dilbert_X wrote:

For the last 50 years at least the world has revolved around Israel and their nutty cult with its end-of-times agenda.
We can thank them for umpteen actual shooting wars and the creation of Arab/muslim terrorism.

Australia's current military priority? Enforcing sanctions on Iran so they can't be a potential threat to Israel - which they weren't going to be but Netanyahu needed to get re-elected so now we have warships in the Gulf again....

Your issue is that you start with a conclusion to then only find supporting evidence. No, world politics hasn't revolved around Israel at all. Definitely not in my continent, national news may bring up the topic of Israel a handful of times throughout the year. On the EU level, during my stint there we discussed Israel directly only a few times, mostly in the context of sanctions. The EU has been wanting to push for several resolutions against Israel for a very long time now with only the US being obstructionist. 'World politics' in our case was far more about Northern Africa, Turkey, Syria, Russia, trade with China, cooperation with the UN & NATO and our relationship with the US.

Perhaps you could make the argument that US politics revolves around Israel, in which case you'd be wrong again as the United States in its support for the country is simply upholding a long-standing policy steeped in its own national interest. Even Kissinger (a jew mind you) consistently advised those in power to ignore Israeli/jewish affairs if it wasn't in the national interest of the United States. The neoconservatives who emerged in the 80s did uphold Israel as a pivotal ally, but the most staunch neoconservatives still considered the Bush administration (their very peak years) as not pro-Israel enough. Evidently policy still deviated from actually revolving around that country.

Has politics in the Middle East orbited Israel? It's undeniable they have a central position in many regional issues but they are also separate from many more. The rivalry between regional players, the internal instability in many middle eastern states, the war on terror, the gulf wars, all of them have very little fundamental involvement from Israel. The Saudis & Iranians aren't exactly basing their foreign policies solely on whatever happens in the Levant. Saddam had also always been much more concerned with Iran than anything Israel was doing. Egypt being a direct neighbour does maintain consistently tenuous relations with that country, though at present it's much more focused on Northern Africa than the Palestinians & Israelis.

It's not that world politics revolves around Israel Dilbert, it's that any time we discuss politics you make it about Israel. Whenever the most vague or far-fetched link could be made to anything Jerusalem, you will jump at the opportunity and no longer see anything else. Your years of obsession with this issue has even made it get to a point where apparently Jewishness is a reason for you to distrust someone. It's pretty disgusting to me that someone else would have to find books on the Middle East by academics who are not ethnically jewish for you to read because you won't bother with anything a jew writes.

I'll also recommend to you the following documentary so that you may expand your narrow worldview a little:

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-30 11:58:59)

why do the Jews even need Israel, when then are living rent free in Dilbert's head 24/7

As for Australian politics, why are multiple former Australian politicians being hosted by 'Zionist Friends of Australia'?
http://www.jwire.com.au/cocktail-recept … in-israel/

There's been a creeping push over the years to define Australia as a 'judeo-christian culture' whatever that means, when there's been no significant connection between the two countries or cultures.

President of the ZFA Jeremy Leibler described the delegation as a select group of Australians who have, during their illustrious careers, helped to build and reinforce the relationship between two countries, united by their common morality and ideals.

What common morality and ideals is that?

“In the various political portfolios they have held, across successive Australian governments of different political persuasions, each member of our delegation has made, and faithfully fulfilled, a commitment to the Australian Jewish community and to Israel.”

Sounds pretty weird TBH, why would Australian politicians be making 'a commitment to Israel'?
The muslim community here is a whole lot bigger and we don't see former politicians creeping after them. In fact our PM threw away a trade deal with Indonesia -  a nation of 200m people - over the location of our embassy in Israel. It also cost him a safe seat in Sydney.
Why is Israel - a trivial country on the other side of the world - always the priority, not our businesses, farmers, neighbouring countries etc?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-11-05 16:21:12)