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Larssen
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+4|236
Gove supposedly is one of the smarter ones

Which is.. worrisome
uziq
Member
+168|1800
according to whom? in his last post in charge of education  he managed to turn the whole sector against him. he ruled against teachers’ better wisdom and implemented new syllabi based around rote memorisation of dates and other jingoistic rubbish. he is an ideologue and a fool.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,792|4980|949

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i was commenting on how the republican party seems to have sold its decency out to lowest common denominator politics. trump was once the outsider candidate, no? witness the astounding silence of republicans over most of his misdeeds.
Trump is an outgrowth of the tea party movement that took place under Obama. It didn't matter to most of his voters who ran as long as they billed themself as a Washington outsider. Your typical voter loathes Washington elitism and corruption more than anything else. Racism, sexism, whatever democrats want to blame, it still came down to Clinton representing the establishment and Trump representing the people that want to piss on them.
All that would be fine (pushing the blame to "the people") except that Republican Party welcomed him in to the establishment.

There's a contrast to be drawn between how the Dems ran their 2016 primary and election and how the Repubs did, and both are striking indictments against the party apparatus and de-facto two party system in American federal politics. Whereas the Dems torpedoed Bernie due to what they correctly saw as him using the Dem Party as a way to get a nomination, the Repubs were more than willing to latch on to Trump as a way to get their agenda rammed through.

There's a lot of party messaging that went in to pushing down Bernie and propping up Trump. Repub elites have no problem latching on to a terrible human being as long as it furthers their interests, going so far as agreeing, promoting and amplifying falsehoods (also called lying, but I'll leave the semantic debate to Warman). In fact, they are now fully captured and seemingly awed by Trump and his actions. The message from the Repub party to its constituents and others is: "It doesn't matter who you are or what you say or do, if you are the Republican nominee/president, we will follow you". This manifests in weird ways like Evangelicals promoting Trump through one side of the mouth while espousing traditional family values out of the other, or passing off some lurid or disgusting comment by saying "I've talked to him before, he doesn't really mean that".

The Republican Party's figurehead is a lying, cheating, womanizing, awful person. This is what Repub voters who instill dogma in to their children are promoting. I hope there is a lesson to be learned here, but I doubt it's a good one. It's more along the lines of "if you want to be president, you can get there by acting like Donald Trump".

But hey, 2 Supreme Court seats, tax rebates for the richest Americans, and an effort to punch down on non-whites is worth it, right?
uziq
Member
+168|1800
^ this is pretty much what i’m referring to when i talk about the republican party bankrupting itself to stay in power.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

demographically, at least, the right-wing here are in a death spiral with an ageing base who are not being replenished. young educated people see the lib dems or the greens as more palatable than the tory party. they have an image problem and the only reason they've extended their shelf-life at the moment is by pandering to the far-right and appealing to the disaffected, ex-labour left voters in post-industrial areas, basically like trump in virginia or something. that's a short-sighted aim: just look at what has happened to the republican party.
Don't count on anything, it was old people who swung the Brexit vote, and the Tory party has rarely had a youth base.
'Young Conservative' used to be a byword for partying Hooray-Henry's and Henriettas, hardly a broad base.

As in America the ageing population just want their pensions protected and subsidised healthcare - fuck the young and the planet, they'll vote 'Conservative' until they die.

Immigrants don't care to vote socialist either, why should they subsidise the moronic indigenous whites to sit on the dole and watch football matches in the pub when they and their children are working 120hr weeks running businesses?
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SuperJail Warden
Member
+196|2068
Most of the western world's problems are due to the indigenous whites being too drugged up on painkillers, alcohol, and team sports.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3706|London, England

uziq wrote:

so they swapped political sophisticate corruption for good old fashioned real estate huckster corruption. right. it’s not exactly as if they nominated a tribune of the people to clear the streets, is it? trump is probably a whole lot more criminal in his past than most d.c. politicos.

also gotta love the washington outsider with paul manafort and roger stone on his campaign team. i mean you can’t get more outsider than them right?

i’m sick of elites making me feel small – let’s elect a racist and a sexist so i don’t feel so belittled by those yale types!
I never said it was rational. It's pure emotion. Everyone hates politicians.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+168|1800
the economic crisis is largely to blame for the widespread loss of faith in politicians and the elites. we need international communism.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX
I already said feudalism - where a perfectly functioning free-market with no govt control ultimately ends up - then there'd be no politicians and the elite would be vanishingly small - problem solved.
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uziq
Member
+168|1800
feudalism was based on everyone producing and being more-or-less self-sufficient for the basics, though. no international supply routes. strictly no avocados. it was still largely a bartering economy for all local and small-scale exchanges; fiat currency was secondary. we can't go back to that. what does your average tv watching slob in the suburbs have to trade for their weekly necessities? the stock of shit they've bought off the tv shopping channel will soon run out.

monarchies were the de facto and de jure politicians of their day. it wasn't exactly an apolitical regime.

we need to end capitalism and we need to elect a council of green druids to run the world.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-09 01:58:44)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX
Monarchies may have been the de facto politicians but the average pleb had no input and so apart from being called up to fight in wars they had no need to think about it. But for 24 hr news we'd have that now.

What we need is to shut down journalism and let the rich and powerful get on and gather more wealth and power - I think it was Jesus who said ignorance is bliss, everyone would be a lot happier.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-10-09 02:19:56)

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uziq
Member
+168|1800
24 hour news? so passé. the influence of tv news on the docile populace was written about (with great flair) during the gulf war era by thinkers such as baudrillard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulf_ … Take_Place

your average pleb isn’t plugged into CNN or bbc news now. they are anti-MSM, in fact, and feel ‘connected’ to the outside world and involved in politics through extremely shadowy, unaccountable, and beholden to private interests social media sites, mouthpieces of political opinion/lobbying dressed up as 'news' or 'journals' (e.g. national review), or blogosphere/youtube pundits (e.g. milo, JP).

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-09 02:23:03)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+196|2068
The most watched news programs in America are the the nightly news shows on CBS, NBC, and ABC. Those channels are free and in almost every home. The shows are boring news with a socially liberal "let's all get along" and economically vague slant. Their viewership is several orders of magnitude larger than the CNN and Fox News viewership. The least watched nightly news shows from those three still have more viewers than CNN and Fox combined.

My mom hates Trump and my dad doesn't like him but voted for him in 2016. They still watch ABC nightly news together everyday and then watch the celebrity news and gossip shows afterward. I should be grateful neither one of them are plugged into the 24/7 news cycle like I am.
Larssen
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+4|236

uziq wrote:

according to whom? in his last post in charge of education  he managed to turn the whole sector against him. he ruled against teachers’ better wisdom and implemented new syllabi based around rote memorisation of dates and other jingoistic rubbish. he is an ideologue and a fool.
Can't source but I heard it plenty during his race against May. I agree.
uziq
Member
+168|1800
amazing that this campaign twitter hasn’t been deleted or scrubbed by now. abandoned 3 years ago. look at it!

https://twitter.com/vote_leave
Larssen
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+4|236

Larssen wrote:

Honestly I do see possibility for a compromise with the EU here even though it's very unlikely. Only Ireland would object against the customs union in NI, let's say that part is scrapped and checks of goods and people happens between NI and England.

Hard to pass in parliament but I can see the EU agreeing to that.
Called it!

At best doubtful this will pass in parliament though.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-17 10:15:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX
Except this is still no deal - all this does is lock in Brexit and push off any negotiations for a year.

"Future UK/EU relationship
This is addressed in the political declaration. This text, which is not legally binding, has also been revised by UK/EU negotiators.

It says that both sides will work towards a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and a high-level meeting will be convened in June 2020 to take stock of progress towards this goal.

The text also contains a new paragraph on the so-called "level playing field" - the degree to which the UK will agree to stick closely to EU regulations in the future."

So its a no-deal Brexit.
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uziq
Member
+168|1800
kier starmer has broken it down. it's worse than may's deal in every single way and makes the UK a weaker, more distant trading partner to the EU. it also gives the conservatives carte blanche to remove all sorts of regulations and protections, including on working rights and other thorny issues that those meddling belgians thrust upon us.

scotland weren't consulted at all, thus giving them plenty of kindling for a second independence referendum.

the conservatives' coalition partners, the DUP, say they cannot support the deal. northern ireland is going to become a huge pressing issue again.

a terrible outcome.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-17 16:23:01)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX
Hard to know what the real end-game is:

Hard No Deal Brexit

Election - Increased Conservative Majority - Hard No Deal Brexit
(I'm guessing UKIP etc will stand aside having done a deal with Johnson)

And whats the end-game behind the end-game - a fortune for the hedge funds?
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3706|London, England
Why is labour keeping Corbym out front if he's so universally despised?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,618|4454|eXtreme to the maX
Labour are a complete rabble and Corbyn is the best they have.
He's popular with the die-hard lefties, and the grass-roots, but like Bernie Sanders he's too far left to take the middle so they'll keep him as the ship sinks.
And since he's elected by the membership the Labour Party can't just change him.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-10-17 21:41:30)

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uziq
Member
+168|1800

Jay wrote:

Why is labour keeping Corbym out front if he's so universally despised?
because he isn’t universally despised. it really depends who you poll (or the wildly biased websites you read...). he’s brought out bigger numbers and got better voting results than previous labour leaders. he has a huge grassroots movement but also obviously he is more divisive than the centrist candidates. you’re either really for him or really against him.

he has been a huge failure by not taking the initiative on the brexit issue, but as a politician he has a mandate to lead, has fended off several leadership contests, and has commanded the best performances in terms of numbers for a labour vote in about a decade (and since the 50s, really, with the exception of blair). people hate him but he can’t be denied.

labour just outlined one of the most radical election manifestos that any western democracy has put forward since the huge society-reorganising deals that were struck after ww2. zero net carbon/total green, renationalisation, abolishing private education etc. he might also be a deep euroskeptic at the least opportune time in modern political history, but he’s mainstreaming genuine alternatives.

we are at a time when status quo politics are quickly becoming wildly incapable of dealing with economic inequality, widespread demographic change, and technological disruption. ‘business as usual’ politics isn’t cutting it. capitalism is making everyone bitter and broke; and technology, and what used to be called the ‘information revolution’, is just making us more lost and confused. no surprises that politicians like sanders and corbyn are sticking out front like annoying pieces of grit in the eye. they talk about breaking up tech giants and going after tax evasion. these are huge structural issues that are having a direct influence on the rapidly polarising (and ugly) political landscape of today.

it’s complicated. the system is in a deadlock not just in the UK but in france and germany too — more so then they like to admit. just because the yellow vests are out the news cycle, doesn’t mean these european countries are harmonious. for the foreseeable future i think the ballot tickets are going to see more and more of these ‘alternative’ politicians. the majority of people are fundamentally less well off and less content now than they were in the 70s and 80s — and it’s getting worse with a slowing down of growth.

the next big breakthrough will be a party that campaigns on issues of genuine voting reform. either to change the systems in place to more proportional representation or on big independence vote/referenda/treaty type issues.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-18 00:55:37)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+196|2068
I have to admit I kind of want to see this Brexit thing go bad  in order for there to be an independent Scotland and unified Ireland. Johnson being the last prime minister of the United Kingdom just feels right and the obvious natural conclusion of his leadership.

There was an article I read in the Atlantic that states that most conservative party members support letting Scotland and North Ireland go if it means they get their Brexit. It's pretty wild that people are willing to break up their country to get out of the E.U. for a little while.
uziq
Member
+168|1800
ideologues at the reins, yes.

most average scots and northern irish don’t want to leave the UK. ‘a unified ireland’ is very controversial republican rhetoric.

you didn’t mention wales so i can only assume you’re not relying on some absolute principle of self-determination, here.

but of course i imagine you’re chill with catholic terrorists and civilian murderers because they’re not muslim. they probably speak less intelligible english than certain democratic congresswomen, however.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-18 06:48:42)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+196|2068

uziq wrote:

ideologues at the reins, yes.

most average scots and northern irish don’t want to leave the UK. ‘a unified ireland’ is very controversial republican rhetoric.

you didn’t mention wales so i can only assume you’re not relying on some absolute principle of self-determination, here.

but of course i imagine you’re chill with catholic terrorists and civilian murderers because they’re not muslim. they probably speak less intelligible english than certain democratic congresswomen, however.
From what I have been told the Welsh don't have an independence movement and are too reliant on England. Speaking of reliance I was talking about Irish reunification with an Irish American Catholic priest who visits Ireland once a year. He said that Northern Ireland is the economically better off of the two Ireland's and reunification would hurt both places more than help for quite a while.

I don't have any special affinity for the IRA.

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