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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX
MDMA, and other drugs, being more or less harmful than alcohol still isn't an argument, if alcohol were invented today it would be illegal tomorrow.

Clinical use still isn't an argument for recreational use either. Trepanning can be useful and therapeutic in a controlled environment, its not really recommended for people to drill holes in their heads at parties however good they think it makes them feel or because 'everyones doing it maaan'.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+171|1833
trepanning has no useful health benefits whatsoever. i think you’re confusing a surgical intervention with a treatment. the analogy makes about as much sense as talking about recreational vivisection.

and yes. alcohol being a horrible drug that would be illegal if invented today is e x a c t l y my point and precisely why i think there are a range of drugs which are far more advisable. christ how many pages did that take?! can you lay off the weed smokers and acid heads of this world now?

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 09:18:42)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
I read somewhere that meth is a particularity bad drug since it can cause worse brain damage than other drugs by messing with dopamine receptors in the brain. Basically the meth causes your brain to release too much in a short time and it damages everything up there. You can't function without smoking meth. Marijuana while not great for the brain either doesn't have that issue. Cocaine and crack I guess have the same brain damage issue that meth has? You always hear stories about how "I was a great lawyer until I discovered cocaine/meth/crack." You never hear about someone blowing their career because they liked smoking pot too much. Pot probably makes me a better worker. I never smoke before work obviously but the bad days at work are a lot more tolerable when I know I have a joint waiting at home. Pot also don't give you hangovers like alcohol which is probably why you hear so many stories of alcoholics who can't hold onto their jobs.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
eating chocolate releases dopamine in the brain. marijuana works on dopamine receptors. it's not so simple as saying 'this one does serotonin, this one does dopamine'.

it really depends how you define 'brain damage'. dopamine is intricately linked to the reward circuit in your brain, determining motivation, senses of reward, pleasure, etc., so therefore has a high abuse potential and leads quickly to addictive or compulsive behaviours. as for brain damage, alcohol causes brain damage (whilst there has been much research to determine if MDMA is neurotoxic, and in what quantities, there has never been any doubt about alcohol). it is directly neurotoxic and kills brain cells. saying something 'causes brain damage' is scary but not ultimately all that persuasive (as this thread evidences). people are more afraid of losing control of their behaviour and spiralling into addiction than they are of drinking themselves into early senility.

people minimise hangovers and make them into a casual, offhand affair, but if someone gave me a pill at a club and said 'take this, you'll feel a buzz for 3 hours and will spend the next day in bed with a headache, wanting to vomit, and with aches and pains in your liver' i would tell them to fuck off. a hangover is catastrophic compared to the comedown from MDMA. and, as you say, drugs like weed, LSD and mushrooms have no after-effects at all (closely related to the fact they have no physiological 'load' and are entirely non-toxic to metabolise).

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 09:26:40)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
From what I read it seemed that meth causes a huge dopamine rush that overloads the receptors and depletes the amount you have. You will then need more meth to reach the same high further damaging the part of your brain that you damaged to get high in the first place. And since your body needs dopamine for other things it being depleted is a big problem in your day to day functions. Like day to day activities become difficult if you don't have your morning meth hit.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
pretty much all drugs operate on that dynamic. you'll never replicate the first high. same goes for the buzz from your first proper drink. tolerances build quickly, whether they are physiologicall or psychological.

and yeah, meth is definitely one of the worst culprits. but lots of people can't function or motivate themselves without a spliff in the morning either. drug abuse and dependence is as much down to psychological as much as objective factors. a person with issues in their life could conceivably run it off the road taking the safest drugs imaginable (they might not be able to overdose or lose all their teeth, but they could lose their job and friends, etc).. the drug is just the first excuse. it doesn't even need to be some scary, illicit drug. people's dopamine circuits are closely implicated in binge eating and obesity, for example. the instant reward and gratification becomes a way of dealing with misery or stress.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 09:38:50)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
After seeing the opiate epidemic's effect on the U.S. and people I know, I have become somewhat embarrassed of the view I had when I was 20 and thought we should legalize all drugs. Some drugs like meth and opiates are particularly dangerous and society should be protected from them. That doesn't justify all the craziness of the drug war though.

I don't have a drug addiction. I haven't smoke pot since April I think. So I don't need it in my life. I don't drink too much since going out to drink is too expensive and drinking at home just leads to headaches and hangovers later. Every time I do get three or four drinks in I get an intense urge to hit a bong though. I have never hit a bong and thought I needed a beer to cool my throat. I think it is clear what my drug of choice is and I am okay with what I landed on.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
yeah you’ll never see me making an argument for opiates or crystal meth. i wouldn’t legalise cocaine either. i took that stuff knowing what it was taking out of me. but i drink in the same spirit too. to pretend to be immune to alcohol’s long term effects is ignorant and naive.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

trepanning has no useful health benefits whatsoever.
DOOOOOOD! People have been doing trepanning for like THOUSANDS OF YEARS and across MULTIPLE CULTURES, its really good for you and like TOTALLY SAFE!

You should chill the fuck out and give it a try. Get your housemate who's read books and stuff to do it for you.
It'll totally change your outlook on life.

https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/JvQNCQkMpu6mcMzjKx5McBWJU8I=/800x600/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/7a/05/7a055096-d0b4-4330-aef2-6a8177360fff/cuzco-skull.jpg
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+171|1833
i don’t know why you’re mentioning this. the only reason to drill into a skull is to relieve intra-cranial pressure. the only reason a medical professional would ever consider that is in a life or death scenario. it’s an emergency surgery to save a life. no one will be prescribed trepanning to improve their lives. on the other hand, taking magic mushrooms or mdma can evidently alleviate personal stress and make people much happier.

are you dumb? part of me thinks you mentioned trepanning because you know my brother had a brain injury. not really smart or germane, dilderp.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
also what is it with people like you thinking that people take drugs because it's 'follow the leader like lemmings' behaviour?

has it ever occurred to you that the only reason people accustom themselves to imbibing poisonous alcohol is because of social peer pressure and 'acceptability'.

do you really think that people the world over only take LSD and MDMA because they 'want to fit in' and match their cool friends?

like, seriously, how fucking moronic are you?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX
Seems you're behind on yet another subject

The Guardian quotes Feilding extolling the benefits of both psychedelics and trepanation. The latter, she conjectures, “improves the level of blood circulation round the brain to that of childhood. You get more blood into the brain with each heartbeat, and also an increase in washout of toxins. I’d suggest that cannabis and psychedelics do the same thing, but at a higher level. There are other techniques that can achieve this, like yogic breathing or cranial osteopathy, but trepanation is permanent.”
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cr … -you-high/

Also pretty sure I caught my mother's neurosurgeon in a lift chatting to another neurosurgeon about the process for drilling into ones own head while conscious.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+171|1833
feilding is a crank. she also funds lots of psychedelic research. but she is an acknowledged crank, an old eccentric aristocrat and far outside of the mainstream. it's funny that you talk about 'bad science' and 'bad stats' but then cite someone who literally drilled a hole in her own head. very objective research.

real research with real measurable results is being done on psychedelics. they are psychoactive and have understood mechanisms. boring a hole in your skull, not so much. not a lot of brain chemistry or neurology involved in exposing the dura mater to rain and wind, dilbert.

there are NO benefits to drilling a hole in someone's head. this is literally primitive ritual, not medicine. the only time a neurosurgeon will ever drill into someone's head is to, you know, perform brain surgery or alleviate intra-cranial pressure in the case of stroke/brain bleed/closed head trauma. no one feels better for having a hole in their skull. even then it is unadvised because a) irreversible without further surgery and b) a prime site for infection. are you literally serious?

from the article: 'having a hole in your head expands your consciousness'. F F S

are you going to start talking about third eyes and pineal glands next? maybe start vouching for the benefits of conscious lobotomies?

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-21 03:52:11)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX
Apparently people have theorised that evolution of the skull has lagged development of the brain, just as the teeth have not kept pace with changes in the jaw.

It seem strange that you're averse to drilling holes in your head but happy to flood it with experimental chemicals.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+171|1833
this is on a par with your 'human beings have adapted in the course of evolution to consuming alcohol' (they haven't: it's as poisonous as it ever was) and 'asians come before whites come before indians come before blacks' racial hierarchies (1895 called and wants their victorian eugenics back).

i'm happy to put chemicals into my brain because, you know, chemicals have an effect. sometimes desirable, sometimes with lasting benefits. we understand the pharmacological mechanism of drugs. that's how, you know, people do research into them, and prescribe them as medicine. drilling through bone to expose your brain to the elements does nothing for your brain's functioning, unfortunately. that's because it's quite happy inside its little protective shell. do you really believe the brain will 'develop' more if given a 5 mm hole to 'expand' through? do you really think consciousness is equivalent to the size of your brain, or its available room to grow and expand? F F S. you do know phrenology is bad science, right? bigger skulls don't make more evolved human beings. giving your third eye room to 'pulsate' doesn't lead to enlightenment. though it might lead to meningitis, if that's your thing.

'people have theorised'. yeah, trepanation was practiced ritually by people in the bronze age, before tested and measurable science. 'theorised' is perhaps not the right word.

trepenation's 'benefits' are of the order of homeopathy and acupuncture. great if it works for you, but there's no objectively observable mechanism at work.

surely a scientist like yourself is familiar with this site?
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trepanation

i'm not sure what an 'experimental chemical' is but if you're suggesting that psilocybin, for example, which has been used for as long as trepanation in human pre-history, is somehow 'experimental' and novel, or some new synthetic compound cooked up by dodgy men in back rooms, then i think you should read a few more journals. you make out like anyone who takes an illegal drug is taking some new, unstable, as-yet-untried chemical and making themselves a lab rat. an odd view, to say the least. drug testing kits are cheap and widely available.

have fun flying to ecuador for third-world surgery. that sounds quite 'experimental' to me. i wonder why it's not available on the NHS?

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-21 04:26:30)

uziq
Member
+171|1833
i literally can't believe that your 'alcohol is perfectly fine, all drugs are bad mm'kay' talk has dovetailed into 'trepanation sounds okay to me, probably better than drugs at least?'

you have lost all credibility.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+712|5066|United States of America
Back on topic,

DesertFox- from a month ago wrote:

Beer.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
i had a few pints of stout last night. definitely took valuable hours off my life expectancy, but a worthwhile trade.

god bless working from home.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
Go back to talking about MDMA and phrenology or whatever you were up to.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
Tried a Four Loko for the first time today. Am pretty pleased with the buzz I am getting.
https://assets.change.org/photos/3/yc/qq/jCyCQqnEPjNPhzU-800x450-noPad.jpg?1492718787
Same alcohol content as wine and it goes down easier. I could see why it was dangerous when it was mixed with caffeine.

I am now just wishing God would bless me with some marijuana I forgot I had. It will make all this essay grading easier.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2019-10-26 17:24:18)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2101
And just like that, the good Lord provided.
uziq
Member
+171|1833
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX
Drug users and dealers are criminals, what does this have to do with beer?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+171|1833
people who smoke indoors or cross the road where there isn’t a marking are also breaking the law. that means zilch to me.

plenty more people commit atrocious crimes, like drink driving or domestic violence, when inebriated. junkies overdosing in soiled hotel rooms at least mind their own business.

the interesting takeaway for me is that technology and law enforcement are inadvertently making it safer and more reliable than ever. and arguably harder to contain. you can now essentially buy designer drugs at maximal purity, complete with customer reviews, drug test results, and even your own reagent/testing kits. none of this was even possible on a wide and casual scale about 10 years ago.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,621|4487|eXtreme to the maX
Its a lot easier to get hold of children too, before people had to hang around outside schools and pull them into a van and they didn't know what they were getting, now there are websites and photos, they're STD tested etc, you send them your bitcoins and they put them on a plane to your door and you can keep them on an island to share with your friends, the Police just can't keep up.

Crime is crime, the efficiency of the criminals doesn't make it right.
Epstein didn't kill himself

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