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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what are you actually talking about? nobody has claimed LSD makes you more intelligent.


no one has claimed anything so facile as 'LSD makes you cleverer'. i mentioned there's a culture of microdosing in silicon valley to show that it's fairly mainstream and evidently not disastrous to one's health and sanity, not that tech-wonks in silicon valley are making scientific breakthroughs. it's a fad there like any number of other silly fads.
So what is the supposed point of amateur microdosing?

Drugs used clincally can be useful for treating medical problems - who knew?
Still not an argument for allowing recreational use.

I pointed to one study of 200,000 people which suggested low-level alcohol consumption at least may not be harmful and can be included in a normal healthy lifestyle.
You've pointed to a study which suggests extreme substance abuse is a problem for people who engage in it and that in deaths between the ages of 15-49 people who die tend to die as a result of extreme and unhealthy behaviour.

Perhaps if you'd done a rigourous STEM degree and not spent your time using your own body to experiment with chemicals you'd be able to put together a cogent argument.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
maybe if you'd done an enlightening and mind-opening arts degree you would have had a social life and left your little box, and realised that not everyone who takes a toke on a joint or does a few lines becomes a degenerate addict with schizophrenia. please don't appeal to your STEM background as if you're the cool voice of reason on the topic. you are an hysteric.

Drugs used clincally can be useful for treating medical problems - who knew?
Still not an argument for allowing recreational use.
well, alcohol will never be used clinically for any application, because it is wholly toxic and bad for you -- what does that say about non-toxic, non-addictive drugs like LSD and mushrooms?

what is your argument for the recreational use of alcohol? if, by most medical accounts, it is harmful and best avoided. is it really worse to take mushrooms in a recreational setting than alcohol? which one causes cancer and addiction, again? which one poses a bigger danger to your life in terms of abuse potential: the addictive and compulsive drug or the non-addictive, non-compulsive one?

it's funny how blithe you are about the large numbers of avoidable deaths and serious health consequences because of alcohol, but will harp on and on about anecdotes of people going crazy after taking LSD.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-02 04:15:02)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what is your argument for the recreational use of alcohol?
Whats the argument for recreational use of any drug? People enjoy it?
if, by most medical accounts, it is harmful and best avoided.
According to most medical accounts moderate use of alcohol is practically harmless. Your link covering the extreme end of drug use is not relevant.
is it really worse to take mushrooms in a recreational setting than alcohol? which one causes cancer and addiction, again? which one poses a bigger danger to your life in terms of abuse potential: the addictive and compulsive drug or the non-addictive, non-compulsive one?
People with substance abuse issues are going to find a substance to abuse, and people seem to put a lot of time, effort, money and risk into getting hold of illegal drugs which are non-addictive and non-compulsive. Strange no?
it's funny how blithe you are about the large numbers of avoidable deaths and serious health consequences because of alcohol, but will harp on and on about anecdotes of people going crazy after taking LSD.
Over-doing anything is unhealthy, I've known enough people who have fried their heads with LSD and/or cannabis, to name two 'harmless' drugs, and ended up wasters or dead to know that you're wrong.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
no one ever wastes their life or ends up dead because of alcohol though. keep sucking back on that bottle, baby! a toxic, addictive substance can’t possibly be more harmful than a non-toxic, non-addictive one. i have a scienc de g reee e.  ,/&
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX
Its amazing how many people waste their life or end up dead thanks to non-toxic, non-addictive substances though isn't it?
No science degree required, just a primary school level understanding of numbers.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
how many people die because of mushrooms or LSD?
coke
Aye up duck!
+436|5114|England. Stoke
For me I can buy a night or two worth's of drink or buy weed which will last me a week or so. Or I can find some mushrooms where I know they grow for free, all that time and effort...
But I've known people who will literally do all sorts of shit for another drink, and they become "wasters" and then they end up dead too...

This "conversation" has become bollocks anyway because Dilbert is resorting to "reductio ad absurdum" about something he clearly has no proper experience off whatsoever.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+199|2124
Bam Margera needs help and he's asking Dr. Phil for his expertise.

The former "Jackass" star took to social media to post a series of emotional videos in which he specifically asked for the TV host. Margera said Dr. Phil is the "only person" he'll trust.

"Dr. Phil, I've seen 28 doctors, I've been to four rehabs," Margera said in one Instagram video that has since expired. "When I went to my last rehab, they put me on more medication than I was on when I was out. When I'm out, I have Adderall and then some weird s***, I'll tell ya all about it. I don't know what works and what doesn't.


"The only person I believe is you. Cause when I watch you, I'm like, 'That's what I would've said, that's what I would've said.' The only person that I will believe on the planet is Dr. Phil," he said.
Dr. Phil did reach out, according to a report by E!, and the two sat for a meeting that was filmed for an upcoming episode of his talk show.
This all sounds like FAKE NEWS and an advertisement for a Dr. Phil special.

But if it isn't...why doesn't he commit suicide? I never understood why people who are in and out of rehab for decades don't just kill themselves. You would think that after 28 attempts at sobriety, you would get the message that you are beyond saving.

I'm not advocating or hoping he commits suicide or anything though. Just food for thought.
uziq
Member
+175|1857
one of the top headlines today:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 … apse-study

Doctors in Bristol are testing whether a few doses of the drug, in conjunction with psychotherapy, could help patients overcome alcoholism more effectively than conventional treatments. Those who have completed the study have so far reported almost no relapse and no physical or psychological problems.

In comparison, eight in 10 alcoholics in England relapse within three years after current treatment approaches. Dr Ben Sessa, an addiction psychiatrist and senior research fellow at Imperial College London, and who led the trial, said: “With the very best that medical science can work with, 80% of people are drinking within three years post alcohol detox.”
using MDMA to cure the life-ruining effects of alcohol abuse. this must make dilbert's head explode.
uziq
Member
+175|1857

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Bam Margera needs help and he's asking Dr. Phil for his expertise.

The former "Jackass" star took to social media to post a series of emotional videos in which he specifically asked for the TV host. Margera said Dr. Phil is the "only person" he'll trust.

"Dr. Phil, I've seen 28 doctors, I've been to four rehabs," Margera said in one Instagram video that has since expired. "When I went to my last rehab, they put me on more medication than I was on when I was out. When I'm out, I have Adderall and then some weird s***, I'll tell ya all about it. I don't know what works and what doesn't.


"The only person I believe is you. Cause when I watch you, I'm like, 'That's what I would've said, that's what I would've said.' The only person that I will believe on the planet is Dr. Phil," he said.
Dr. Phil did reach out, according to a report by E!, and the two sat for a meeting that was filmed for an upcoming episode of his talk show.
This all sounds like FAKE NEWS and an advertisement for a Dr. Phil special.

But if it isn't...why doesn't he commit suicide? I never understood why people who are in and out of rehab for decades don't just kill themselves. You would think that after 28 attempts at sobriety, you would get the message that you are beyond saving.

I'm not advocating or hoping he commits suicide or anything though. Just food for thought.
not really food for thought, is it? he needs to change his social circle. i'm sure bam has a bunch of wasters and hangers-on in his entourage, keeping him immured in some non-stop party lifestyle. hardly 'beyond saving', but he does need proper help, quite clearly. doesn't help that his best friend got killed in a car accident and he's probably never done the proper work of getting through it.

but yeah, other than your insensitive comments, this is clearly some PR stunt.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX
Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213787-extinction-rebellion-founder-calls-for-mass-psychedelic-disobedience/

lmao
Taking drugs makes people less inclined to follow the law - doesn't seem great to me.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
mdma isn’t addictive.

psychedelic therapies are touted as a one-time (or a few sessions) cure for long term benefits. pretty much unseen as a treatment paradigm for addiction or trauma issues.

none of the drugs being trialled are addictive or toxic. compare the LD50 ratios of alcohol to mdma or psilocybin.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-19 16:25:57)

uziq
Member
+175|1857

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213787-extinction-rebellion-founder-calls-for-mass-psychedelic-disobedience/

lmao
Taking drugs makes people less inclined to follow the law - doesn't seem great to me.
you’re right. drink drivers, street brawlers and wife beaters are a real problem.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
mdma isn’t addictive.

psychedelic therapies are touted as a one-time (or a few sessions) cure for long term benefits. pretty much unseen as a treatment paradigm for addiction or trauma issues.

none of the drugs being trialled are addictive or toxic. compare the LD50 ratios of alcohol to mdma or psilocybin.
And the proportion of people who end up psychotic or serotonin depleted?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
read the article.  do a research.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX
Doctors in Bristol are testing whether a few doses of the drug, in conjunction with psychotherapy, could help patients overcome alcoholism more effectively than conventional treatments. Those who have completed the study have so far reported almost no relapse and no physical or psychological problems.

In comparison, eight in 10 alcoholics in England relapse within three years after current treatment approaches. Dr Ben Sessa, an addiction psychiatrist and senior research fellow at Imperial College London, and who led the trial, said: “With the very best that medical science can work with, 80% of people are drinking within three years post alcohol detox.”

Eleven people have so far completed the safety and tolerability study, which involves nine months of follow-ups. “We’ve got one person who has completely relapsed, back to previous drinking levels, we have five people who are completely dry and we have four or five who have had one or two drinks but wouldn’t reach the diagnosis of alcohol use disorder,” Sessa said.
Seems like a shit study TBH, comparing relapse rates after nine months compared with three years.
80% are drinking after three years without MDMA.
With MDMA after nine months the figure is 5-6/11 (either someone is drinking or not, the last one is Schrodingers cat?) = 45-55% back to drinking

Can't really draw any conclusions at all from this, seems the author is pushing an agenda which is simply not backed by his own evidence based on an inadequate sample and bending words to mean what he wants.

Shit work D- try again Mr Nutt, and maybe don't sample the test meds while working.

Here's some other research. While 96.6% of festival-goers use alcohol compared with 79.5% for MDMA, MDMA is responsible for 100% of the deaths.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n … quest-told

The deputy state coroner, Harriet Grahame, is examining the deaths of Nathan Tran, 18, Diana Nguyen, 21, Joseph Pham, 23, Callum Brosnan, 19, Joshua Tam, 22, and Ross-King, 19, who all died from MDMA toxicity or complications of MDMA use at music festivals between December 2017 and January 2019.

Barratt said regulation of the supply of the drug “could prevent some of the harms” associated with the drug, and pointed to research in the US looking to use MDMA to treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

“It doesn’t solve the problem [because] there are idiosyncratic reactions to a normal dose of MDMA that we see in the literature so ... it’s not possible to say MDMA is safe, it’s not that simple,” she said.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-08-20 05:08:05)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
79.5% of festival goers use MDMA? what???
people have ‘idiosyncratic’ reactions to alcohol too. and ibuprofen. what’s her point? all clinically approved drugs have this risk.

mdma deaths at festivals are normally due to overdosing, lack of hydration and drinking in combination with alcohol (which leads to dehydration). i don’t think anyone is condoning taking huge doses of MDMA at hot and crowded festivals. about as wise as downing a bottle of vodka and needing your stomach pumped tbh.

how many people end up in hospital wards because of binge drinking? people die from alcohol overdoses all the time. cherrypicking examples from festivals, where alcohol is exorbitantly priced and not really the lure (who wants to be paralytic when at a music festival?), is hardly ‘good research’.

so the medical study done by scientists is bad, but your news story about a relatively small number of deaths at music festivals is solid. lol ok. meanwhile two pages ago you didn’t bat an eyelid at the 10,000s of alcohol-related deaths per year.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/alcohol-ran … ays-report
alcohol ranked most dangerous drug in australia
???
i guess aussies never binge drink and end up in the ER requiring emergency treatment for severe poisoning. many people die this way.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 03:16:56)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX
People dying from alcohol at music festivals is pretty uncommon.
People collapsing and dying at the pub is pretty uncommon.

The point is MDMA is not the totally safe drug you make it out to be, forget huge doses, not even in clinically controlled doses - according to the experts.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-08-20 04:32:00)

Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
people dying from mdma at festivals is also very uncommon. you can read stats right?

i don’t think it would be given approval for testing if it was lethal in clinical doses, dilbert. once someone overdoses on MDMA it is incredibly difficult to revive them. it’s not like pumping a stomach.

yes, the majority of alcohol abuse doesn’t occur at festivals or down your local pub. what’s your point? the majority of cocaine deaths don’t happen at nightclubs. what are you getting at here?!? so because alcoholics or binge drinkers aren’t dying stood at a bar, it’s a safe chemical? lmao

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 04:37:19)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX
Right so if someone 'OD's on alcohol they can be fixed, with MDMA they can't.
Sounds like they're exactly the same then.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
wow you are really smart. alcohol is administered as a liquid. if you pump someone’s stomach before enough of it gets into the bloodstream, you can potentially save them. MDMA gets into the blood and crosses the blood–brain barrier much quicker. once the overdose begins, you can’t just take the chemical back out of their system.

when someone goes into liver failure because alcohol reaches toxic levels in their bloodstream, it’s also very hard to save them. no shit. 5,500 deaths last year in australia alone would suggest that overdosing on or abusing alcohol is perfectly capable of killing you stone dead. but i guess it’s not a problem because people aren’t dying at pubs? talk about tasteless — they don’t die drinking the expensive stuff surrounded by friends!

my point being that MDMA is perfectly safe at clinical doses, that’s the entire presumption and proof of years of testing with trauma patients. do you think a new medicine would get approved that had the potential to kill someone at random? come on, smart man

have you seen what happens to alcoholics in withdrawal from alcohol? people can die suddenly just because the poison is withdrawn. coming off alcohol is considered as bad as quitting heroin. uncontrollable shakes, sweats, cardiac episodes, psychosis. it’s actually very dangerous to try and withdraw from alcohol abuse. what’s all that scary-sounding stuff you peddle about serotonin depletion again? ZOMG GUESS THEYRE NOT THE SAME

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 04:59:10)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,623|4511|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

my point being that MDMA is perfectly safe at clinical doses,
Apparently you're wrong

“It doesn’t solve the problem [because] there are idiosyncratic reactions to a normal dose of MDMA that we see in the literature so ... it’s not possible to say MDMA is safe, it’s not that simple,”
Apart from this Nutt guy who seems to cherry pick data to justify his own continued research, real research seems to point the other way.
Plenty of peer-reviewed articles here.
https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/pub … y-2-3-pmdm
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+175|1857
the same website you linked gives literally the explicit advice that 'it's never safe to consume alcohol'. derp. every category of harm listed in that site, which are all valid and relevant, especially in cases of 'extreme doses', applies to alcohol. neurotoxicity, cardiovascular harm, liver damage -- what are you missing here?

the simple fact is that, in this thread, i've linked half a dozen studies or so, from multiple sources, different countries, government and non-government alike, that all state unequivocally that alcohol is worse for you than MDMA. whether considered solely as a chemical harm or matter of drug toxicity, or for addictive and abuse potentials, for harm to families and loved ones, for harm to society as a whole in terms of direct health burden and indirect economic costs, every single study says that alcohol is worse for you than MDMA, by some magnitude at that. it is ranked by almost every metric alongside drugs like heroin, cocaine and crystal meth in terms of harm. every single study i have linked, from those aforementioned objective sources, have ranked drugs like LSD, MDMA and magic mushrooms way behind your beloved tipple in terms of harm.

the only obstacle to this being a fairly conclusive and commonsense admission is that you appear to enjoy alcohol.

that drug legislation and laws, after decades of 'the war on drugs', are nonsensical and ideologically driven, doesn't exactly buoy your argument.

a whole category of drugs are being safely investigated for their potential to enhance people's lives, curing ills, addressing traumas -- in short, they are being acknowledged as safe chemicals that can be turned to medicine. that will unequivocally, again, never be the case for alcohol: alcohol has no possible medicinal benefits at all, because of its host of aforementioned negative qualities and pharmacological harms, which have been well-documented and acknowledged at length. all medical advice leans towards rhetoric of 'consume less', 'cut out alcohol completely' or 'enjoy a glass or two if you must with a meal'. no medical professional will ever prescribe or recommend taking up alcohol. that's because it's patently bad for you.

nobody has said that the above drugs, taken in extremes, are perfectly safe and fine. that's not how drugs work. i have said, pretty much consistently for years on this forum, that everyone runs a risk:benefit analysis when doing drugs. MDMA is statistically safer than riding a horse or firing a gun. you make your own informed choices, understanding that every drug has consequences. the fact is that alcohol is a much worse idea than MDMA. there is no such thing as alcohol consumption without short- and long-term consequences. even 1 or 2 drinks a night can have disruptive effects on your brain's sleep activity and sleep-cycle. you seem to view it as a drug that can be taken without any drawbacks ... because you consume it. it's easy to scarify research that discusses the effects of MDMA, but then you'll shrug off a hangover. what do you think is happening to your body and brain chemistry there, exactly?

the picture seems pretty clear to me. you're arguing against the expert opinion of several federal drug authorities, in the US, UK, australia, etc, who are all approving and trialling psychedelics for clinical use. i would suggest they know whether something can be safely made into a medicine or not. it's pretty amusing watching you accuse them all of 'being high on their own supply'. really? some of the top medical institutions and research universities in the world? the FDA?

i hope one day you take a trip, maaaan, and enjoy an afternoon with yourself and your own evidently flickering shadows. you might figure some things out and come out a less bitter and fearful person.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 05:46:14)

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