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coke
Aye up duck!
+435|4849|England. Stoke
Thanks for proving my point there Dilbert.
uziq
Member
+150|1592
lots of leftists criticise israel. it's not anti-semitic. corbyn however did keep company with literal muslim terrorists. when bombs and dead innocents are involved it becomes a bit more serious. i am temperamentally left-wing but i do think the labour party has a problem with jews. since the fabians there has always been a strange (now ironic) aversion to international jewish banking capital. it's not even conspiratorial within the context of the labour struggle. but it very quickly morphs into jew hate.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4246|eXtreme to the maX
Corbyn also associated with IRA terrorists, maybe he isn't anti-semitic, he's just a moron who likes hanging around with terrorists?

Just as Blair lies to associate with eastern-european strongmen, Trump seems to have thing for brutal plutocrats etc.

But of course objecting to the Israeli army killing children in Palestine is by definition anti-semitism now, so obviously he is.
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uziq
Member
+150|1592
the thing is, the labour party isn't really concerned with 'objecting to the israeli army killing children'. jewish MPs are barraged with hate and vitriol on twitter every day by useful idiots who are pro-corbyn/pro-momentum. it really is an unpleasant political atmosphere and israel isn't really even relevant.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4246|eXtreme to the maX
So what does twitter have to do with Corbyn?
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3498|London, England
I like Israel. I don't have a problem with how the Jews formed their own country and displaced the local populace. To take issue with that would be hypocrisy, as every single other country on the planet was formed in the same way. They created a country and have defended it repeatedly ever since.

Are they too embedded in American public life? Yes. They've built a very good propaganda machine here that creates ties between American Jews and Israel with things like birthright trips for young adults. The best way to create sympathy is to provide personal experiences and connections, which they do very well. It's all very above-board though, so it's difficult to criticize something any other country can do, and some of which do in fact do here (Thai restaurants in America are a form of propaganda too).

I don't think most criticism of Israel is anti-semitic in origin, I think that in the case of the labour party and the democrats here, it's largely an extension of rooting for the underdog. When you set yourself up as the defender of the working class, you're going to pull in many aggrieved groups into your tent. Palestinians are a naturally sympathetic group for these types to support. I get that. The problem is that there's a whole helluva lot of history involved and a lot of words written by anti-semites over the centuries that these people end up delving into to make their pro-Palestine cases. It's a very short trip from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew.

The second issue is that rooting for the underdog leads many of these people to feel sympathy for Islam where none should exist. How so many supposedly open-minded, atheistic and liberal people have come to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots, the type they disparage in their own countries when they're Christian, is beyond me.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4246|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

I like Israel. I don't have a problem with how the Jews formed their own country and displaced the local populace. To take issue with that would be hypocrisy, as every single other country on the planet was formed in the same way.
So why have issues with, say, Iran seeking to displace them and form a new country?
They created a country and have defended it repeatedly ever since.
Actually they were defeated by the Romans and displaced themselves. Since then they've reformed the country - why shouldn't the Palestinians have the same right - to defeat them and reform their country?
How so many supposedly open-minded, atheistic and liberal people have come to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots, the type they disparage in their own countries when they're Christian, is beyond me.
But you think its OK for 'conservatives' to take up the cause of ultra-conservative religious zealots in Israel?
Maybe you should look up where the word 'zealot' comes from.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-11 06:18:22)

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uziq
Member
+150|1592

Dilbert_X wrote:

So what does twitter have to do with Corbyn?
corbyn is overwhelmingly a product of momentum and their main organising space and area of discussion is/was twitter. like it or not, most UK mp's are now tweeting animals and  so on a daily basis they are exposed to the more unsavoury anti-semitic aspects of the momentum/corbynite crowd. you really don't have to spend long on those feeds before seeing that there is quite a nasty element to it, with a strong 'party enforcer' aspect.

corbyn is a charisma- and rhetoric-free zone, so thankfully we don't have a demagogue communicating directly to his congregation à la trump on twitter. but the political machine that led to his leadership election victory are always out in force there. take a dip.

re: jay, yes you're right that there is an underdog-psychology aspect to it, but then there is also the less sublimated and more obvious part wherein israel is increasingly becoming a militaristic right-wing autocratic state with very little international accountability. netanyahu is a thoroughly unpleasant fellow and his political ideology is pretty easy to critique without needing to dust off your copy of 'the protocols of the elders of zion' and repeat some anti-semitic propaganda.

Last edited by uziq (2019-03-11 13:42:59)

coke
Aye up duck!
+435|4849|England. Stoke
Exactly it's the people and attitudes Corbyn "encourages" rather than Corbyn himself.
What do people born and bred in Britain who show no affection or support to Israel have to do with Israel apart from being Jewish, and yet when they complain about people abusing/slandering them, they get "but what about what Israel does to the Palestinians! hurrr durrr".

As for the Iranians and Palestinians trying to replace or reform other states, they been trying since the 40's and it's not worked out so far has it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4246|eXtreme to the maX

coke wrote:

As for the Iranians and Palestinians trying to replace or reform other states, they been trying since the 40's and it's not worked out so far has it.
It would if the US didn't step in each time, or preemptively demolish Iraq and destabilise Iran.

Exactly it's the people and attitudes Corbyn "encourages" rather than Corbyn himself.
What encouragement has Corbyn given? It seems the only thing he's done was to decline to sign up to the new and bizarre definition of anti-semitism.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-13 05:39:19)

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