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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3496|London, England

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

However the average person you so despise did indeed vote for Brexit, various European countries are heading the same way.
And we know that refugees and immigrants play by entirely different rules, so don't pull that one.

Someone I know asked the question - if multiculturalism is so wonderful why do the regions which experience it invariably become more racist, xenophobic and nationalist?

And I ask the question every time - if refugees want to escape a toxic culture why do they bring it with them?
do refugees bring a toxic culture with them? what do you think refugees are fleeing, exactly? islam? they are fleeing war zones and sectarian violence. do you really think it's the fault and responsibility of every refugee to solve sunni–shia factionalism, or the actions of their dictators and militaries? i wonder if you'd burden a christian refugee, say someone from a war-scarred central african state, with the same expectations.

multiculturalism didn't create more racism and nationalism. the economic downturn did. fascism and nationalism always come off the back of financial crashes, not liberal multiculturalist experiments. look at the peak of the austro-hungarian empire, or weimar germany. the historical precedents are there. they were tolerant, open and highly successful societies until their economies got wiped out. then the right moves in to capitalise on workers' (perceived) griefs. it's a depressing pattern.

and nice try, but 'multiculturalism' did not cause brexit. most little englanders are anti-EU in the sense that they are anti-brussels. or anti-polish cheap labour. that's white, christian europe (or more properly the totally areligious globalism's fault). lol. keep projecting your personal bugbears onto every global issue, though. it's quaint. what a shame that the bulk of 'multicultural' britain came from the colonies, from india and pakistan, from the west indies and the caribbean, and don't fit into your neat little narrative about 'the average man voicing his ire at multiculturalism via brexit'.
They bring their ultra-conservative worldview with them and it's a direct clash with the liberal societies they are entering. They're fish out of water.

And he's correct, multiculturalism does breed more racism and resentment. You can't have separate societies functioning side by side without there being friction. This becomes exacerbated when some are given special treatment while others are not. Assimilation to the dominant culture is the only way to integrate immigrants without a lot of long term problems.

I'm not saying people have to give up their religion, but they should give up their language, clothing, ideas about laws, etc. If you want to move to the US, become Americanized. If you want to move to the UK, become Anglicized. Most people do this on their own when they move somewhere new. My dad's parents came directly from Germany but his father refused to let my grandmother speak German in the home so that his own kids would be raised purely American. It's pretty much how every immigrant wave behaved when they came here up until multiculturalism started being preached.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+150|1590
ultra conservative values? most refugees are moderate people who want to escape war zones. there’s video interviews online of refugees in sweden saying how much they love the country and its values. where do you get this impression from that all refugees are a hateful fifth column that despise the west?

do you want to preach and promote the values of a secular, tolerant democracy or not?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3496|London, England

uziq wrote:

ultra conservative values? most refugees are moderate people who want to escape war zones. there’s video interviews online of refugees in sweden saying how much they love the country and its values. where do you get this impression from that all refugees are a hateful fifth column that despise the west?

do you want to preach and promote the values of a secular, tolerant democracy or not?
Compared to the societies they are entering, they are ultra-conservative.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+150|1590
compared to whom? a liberal democracy can tolerate evangelicals, scientologists, hasidim, but not a muslim family from syria?
SuperJail Warden
Member
+185|1858

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

ultra conservative values? most refugees are moderate people who want to escape war zones. there’s video interviews online of refugees in sweden saying how much they love the country and its values. where do you get this impression from that all refugees are a hateful fifth column that despise the west?

do you want to preach and promote the values of a secular, tolerant democracy or not?
Compared to the societies they are entering, they are ultra-conservative.
Well that's because those countries embraced trannyism.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3496|London, England

uziq wrote:

compared to whom? a liberal democracy can tolerate evangelicals, scientologists, hasidim, but not a muslim family from syria?
It has nothing to do with the particular religion. Dilbert may be singling out Islam, I am not. Evangelicals, Scientologists etc are conservative, yes, but they grew up in this society and understand it, even if they don't embrace it. Conservatives moving into our countries from places where there is no such thing as liberalism don't understand how to behave. They go a little nutty.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+185|1858
White evangelicals gave us Trump. They are a bigger threat to us than the Muzzies.
uziq
Member
+150|1590

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

compared to whom? a liberal democracy can tolerate evangelicals, scientologists, hasidim, but not a muslim family from syria?
It has nothing to do with the particular religion. Dilbert may be singling out Islam, I am not. Evangelicals, Scientologists etc are conservative, yes, but they grew up in this society and understand it, even if they don't embrace it. Conservatives moving into our countries from places where there is no such thing as liberalism don't understand how to behave. They go a little nutty.
i’m sorry but evangelicals and hasidim do not ‘understand’ the basic tenets of liberalism and don’t conform to liberal norms. they are just as ghettoised. worse, evangelical christians actively try to turn the society’s politics to their own vision. talk about fears of a conservative religious group antithetical to liberalism who want to overthrow society ... ahem.

do muslims go a little nutty? i had a muslim housemate for two years and she definitely wasn’t nutty. she went to medical school, got two degrees, enjoyed socialising, now is becoming a homeowner. incompatible with western life, right?

the majority of muslim immigrants want the same as any other immigrant family. they want to work, raise a family, live in peace and safety, and get on. they want to be left alone to practice their beliefs. sure, the first generation might not learn the language perfectly, but their children do. the father’s don’t want the sons to go on to own a bodega or drive a taxi. they want them to become dentists or at least educated. this idea that they’re a festering boil or parasite on western society is basically your racist fearmongering.

Last edited by uziq (2018-10-22 07:38:22)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,964|3496|London, England

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

compared to whom? a liberal democracy can tolerate evangelicals, scientologists, hasidim, but not a muslim family from syria?
It has nothing to do with the particular religion. Dilbert may be singling out Islam, I am not. Evangelicals, Scientologists etc are conservative, yes, but they grew up in this society and understand it, even if they don't embrace it. Conservatives moving into our countries from places where there is no such thing as liberalism don't understand how to behave. They go a little nutty.
i’m sorry but evangelicals and hasidim do not ‘understand’ the basic tenets of liberalism and don’t conform to liberal norms. they are just as ghettoised. worse, evangelical christians actively try to turn the society’s politics to their own vision. talk about fears of a conservative religious group antithetical to liberalism who want to overthrow society ... ahem.

do muslims go a little nutty? i had a muslim housemate for two years and she definitely wasn’t nutty. she went to medical school, got two degrees, enjoyed socialising, now is becoming a homeowner. incompatible with western life, right?

the majority of muslim immigrants want the same as any other immigrant family. they want to work, raise a family, live in peace and safety, and get on. they want to be left alone to practice their beliefs. sure, the first generation might not learn the language perfectly, but their children do. the father’s don’t want the sons to go on to own a bodega or drive a taxi. they want them to become dentists or at least educated. this idea that they’re a festering boil or parasite on western society is basically your racist fearmongering.
Kind of puts the lie to your multicultural beliefs, no? You're praising voluntary assimilation.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+150|1590
when did i say i had multicultural beliefs? i said it wasn’t responsible for brexit — the time frame of revolt is about 15 years out of joint.

why is it ‘assimilation’ for someone to fit in? most muslims are moderates who fit in just fine with western societies: they don’t lose their muslim identity or values in the process. you are tilting at windmills.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i live here. i watch the news every day. it's the conversation on everyone's lips in work, in the pub. you know more why the average british person voted for brexit, i presume, sat over there with your islamophobia? when's the last time you lived in the UK again, in the 1980s? multiculturalism's hey-day was during the peak of new labour/blair's era. where was the mass discontent against europe then, pre-2008? multiculturalism must have really been firing people up!
UKIP was founded in 1993, Blair deliberately swamped the country with immigrants just as Merkel did, resentment has been building a while. Probably you didn't hear about it with your headphones on.
I was last in the UK in 2004, part of the push to leave was seeing the country taken over.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

However the average person you so despise did indeed vote for Brexit, various European countries are heading the same way.
And we know that refugees and immigrants play by entirely different rules, so don't pull that one.

Someone I know asked the question - if multiculturalism is so wonderful why do the regions which experience it invariably become more racist, xenophobic and nationalist?

And I ask the question every time - if refugees want to escape a toxic culture why do they bring it with them?
do refugees bring a toxic culture with them? what do you think refugees are fleeing, exactly? islam? they are fleeing war zones and sectarian violence. do you really think it's the fault and responsibility of every refugee to solve sunni–shia factionalism, or the actions of their dictators and militaries? i wonder if you'd burden a christian refugee, say someone from a war-scarred central african state, with the same expectations.

multiculturalism didn't create more racism and nationalism. the economic downturn did. fascism and nationalism always come off the back of financial crashes, not liberal multiculturalist experiments. look at the peak of the austro-hungarian empire, or weimar germany. the historical precedents are there. they were tolerant, open and highly successful societies until their economies got wiped out. then the right moves in to capitalise on workers' (perceived) griefs. it's a depressing pattern.

and nice try, but 'multiculturalism' did not cause brexit. most little englanders are anti-EU in the sense that they are anti-brussels. or anti-polish cheap labour. that's white, christian europe (or more properly the totally areligious globalism's fault). lol. keep projecting your personal bugbears onto every global issue, though. it's quaint. what a shame that the bulk of 'multicultural' britain came from the colonies, from india and pakistan, from the west indies and the caribbean, and don't fit into your neat little narrative about 'the average man voicing his ire at multiculturalism via brexit'.
Generally speaking these days 'refugees' are largely fleeing their own culture and intertwined poor standard of living.

I'm somehow doubtful Weimar Germany was overrun by North Africans and Middle-Eastern muslims, more likely local Europeans who were culturally and religiously quite compatible.

So why did the average Brit vote for Brexit then oh wise one? When was the last time you even spoke to one?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2018-10-23 00:25:07)

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uziq
Member
+150|1590
UKIP were founded as an anti-europa party, not anti-immigrant. it was called the anti-federalist league and was explicitly opposed to maastricht and the EU. how are you making this about 'multiculturalism', which in your usage, let's face it, is a euphemism for islam? the closest UKIP ever came to nationalism/bigotry of the sort you're espousing, i.e white britain for white people, was when they absorbed the momentum from the BNP's tiny flicker of success (a thoroughly bone-headed and moronic lot). UKIP just became the mutant child of disaffected eurosceptic conservatives -- its platform has never been about 'undoing multiculturalism'. only with the migrant crisis and refugee spike did the 'let's take back control of our borders' thing acquire an explicitly non-white and 'christian europe' feel. which, by the way, very classy.

http://pic.twitter.com/Rd89XZSvfD

before that it was a lot of plummy-voiced chums based in london or the city who always railed against europe's overweening bureaucracy and regulations. it was never about non-christian immigrants 'changing' the culture of the place and 'taking over the country'. UKIP through the 90s was a lobby group for big financial players. considering that most of the UK's non-white, non-christian immigration happened before that period and came from outside of europe,, anyway, and indeed before the anti-EU movement ever got going, surely underlines just what fearful hokum your whole theory is.

the BNP, the explicitly anti-islamic and anti-multiculturalist element of britain's right, have never secured a single seat in parliament. their highest ever performance in a general election was securing 1.9% of the vote, in 2010, shortly after the financial crash (just like i said about right-wing xenophobia being a result of economic pressures on the working class, and not some long-building 'racial resentment' that is inevitable in multicultural societies). UKIP, the anti-european little englander vehicle, achieved 12.5% of the vote in their sensational 'surge' in 2015. that was 3.8 million votes.

a year after that result for UKIP, 17.5 million people voted to leave europe. 52% of the votes.

please tell me again that brexit is all about 'the common people' voicing their long-held resentments about multiculturalism/brown people/the islamic enemy in our midst.

Last edited by uziq (2018-10-23 00:29:14)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX
Resentment of uncontrolled immigration was clearly a factor, amongst others, in the Brexit vote.
If as you say UKIP and Brexit are not connected what was the reason?
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uziq
Member
+150|1590
euroskepticism has always been a dominant strand of the conservative party. thatcher struggled with the same factionalism. a huge number of moderate shires tories never got onboard with europe. the conservative party have also always found UKIP/BNP and other fringe organisations to be politically toxic and way beyond the pale of 'mainstream', moderate right-wing politics. are you really trying to ascribe anti-multiculturalist and anti-immigrant beliefs to a huge majority of the english electorate by appealing to UKIP? lol did you ever actually live in the UK?

if you actually look back at the history of UKIP's immigration rhetoric, you'll note that it was mostly always polish/romanians/hungarians/bulgarians etc who were their main figures of suspicion. it was a distinctly labour market type appeal. only with the migrant crisis did they see a chance to turn that to their long-term anti-EU goals. sorry, but you can't back-shade and say that a huge number of the UK electorate have always been anti-multiculturalism, as in anti non-white/non-christian immigration, and that the brexit vote was 'finally' a chance for them to voice this resentment about islam.

Last edited by uziq (2018-10-23 00:35:58)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX
I didn't say a 'huge number of the UK electorate have always been anti-multiculturalism' I said it was a factor, and exacerbated recently by terrorism and uncontrolled immigration, given the vote was practically 50:50 a small faction could easily have swung the scales.
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uziq
Member
+150|1590
that or the tremendous lie they pasted on the side of tour buses and drove around the country advertising, that quitting the EU would give £350 million a week extra to the NHS (and if you want a guaranteed easy appeal to the average englander, mention the NHS).
SuperJail Warden
Member
+185|1858
The more I learn about Christian democracy and ideas, the more I like it. I am becoming increasingly anti-evangelical too. Mainline Protestants are fine but evangelicalism is a plague. They are a bigger problem in the west than Islam.
uziq
Member
+150|1590
yeah, evangelicals have a lot more power and influence on day-to-day political discourse than islam. they are batshit crazy and moral hypocrites to boot.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+185|1858
Politico article title :Tensions flare as Dems struggle to respond to Omar controversy

"Lawmakers clashed behind closed doors, with some complaining that Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her leadership team had failed to handle the escalating political crisis."

A freshman representative said Israel has too much influence in American politics. This is now a "crisis" thereby proving her right.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+707|4823|United States of America
I can take solace that least she's not being completely ostracized. The more establishment Dems seem to be throwing her to the wolves, though.

On that note, several articles mention the Labour Party and Corbyn having similar controversies, and I've also never understood that having read what's been said.
coke
Aye up duck!
+435|4847|England. Stoke

DesertFox- wrote:

I can take solace that least she's not being completely ostracized. The more establishment Dems seem to be throwing her to the wolves, though.

On that note, several articles mention the Labour Party and Corbyn having similar controversies, and I've also never understood that having read what's been said.
Because droves of self confessed "Corbynista's" are raving anti-semites, who similarly Dilbert seem to think that "supporting" Palestine (usually the only human rights issue they do seem concerned about) will hide the fact that they actually massive racists, and usually have some form of paranoid delusion about "Zionists controlling the world/Rothschilds own the world banks".
These people will be quite open on this and instead of just addressing the issue they start blaming either the "Zionists" (usually born and bred British people who happen to be Jewish) or "Tory scum", for smearing their beloved leader.
I don't believe Corbyn actually is an anti-semite per say just he will turn a blind eye to it, and his political obsessions with Palestine and other countries around the world (rather than actually his own constituents) and engender atmosphere in the Labour party which encourages all the conspiracy theory loving loons and the downright racists out of the woodwork.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX
No, the jews have unilaterally changed the definition of anti-semitism to include any criticism of Israel.
They're now scared that Britain could elect a government which isn't blindly pro-Zionist and are going berserk trying to prevent it.

Maybe people who "support" Tibet are secretly massive anti-sinoists?

The jews are scared that people are getting tired of them playing the holocaust card every time they bulldoze another Palestinian village or shoot another dozen Palestinian children in the head, and are desperate to educate a new generation of the need to support their Waco-like outpost in Arabia.

What better way than to scream down anyone who doesn't support their racist cult and accuse them of racism?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-07 13:34:13)

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DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+707|4823|United States of America
It makes sense that legit anti-Semites will jump on board as soon as they perceive someone to be on their side, and it's a delicate dance to criticize Israel while telling conspiratorial nutjobs and Nazis to fuck off. Sort of like Trump and white nationalists, except without the distancing. The language did appear to contribute to Rep. Omar's current predicament, as well. The rules of that political game mean everything has to be 100% above board or it gives an out for people to dismiss it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,602|4244|eXtreme to the maX
Trouble is, any mild criticism of Israel is now equivalent to Nazism.
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