BF2S Forums Official Mass Shooting & Suicide Bomber thread

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

The NRA is a convenient bogeyman. No lobbying group has that much power, let's be real. The reason gun control measures don't get implemented is because even when Democrats have power they care more about not losing their handful of remaining seats in the Senate from flyover country. The Republican base, in turn, would turn against them if they proposed anything that restricted gun ownership, especially if it's anything popular with the left wing media. So yeah, blame the NRA. Lots of gun owners would get behind reasonable measures, but they'd rather, out of spite, that nothing get done than to give liberals any sort of victory. You are the problem Ken, not the NRA. You and people like you are smarmy cunts and no one wants to hear your voice. They'd rather loltrump.

So its not the fault of the Democrats or the Republicans, its the fault of the average dumb voter?
Or the Republicans being petty?

From this perspective it is pathetic that the Republicans devote so much of their time to blocking sensible policies solely so they can later say "look! the democrats are useless! they never get anything done!" when they agreed with the policies and they themselves prevented them happening.
That doesn't necessarily mean that people like Ken are the problem, its that Republicans are so dumb they'd prefer to cut off their own nose to spite someone elses face. Or their own face. I still don't get the people who drive without a seatbelt so they can feel they're sticking it to the gubmint as they're sailing through their windshield.

While we're on the subject its mindbending that the same Republicans who blocked Obama's debt and spending increases, because they believe in small government and fiscal responsibility, are the same people pushing Trump's debt and spending increases - plus tax cuts, and anyone who disagrees hates America, freedom and the military.

Personally I think the NRA has spun itself into its own web, stoking the paranoia of gun-owners to boost their own coffers and influence.

Not sure why the chart is backwards, but boosting revenue from $150m to $350m in ten years is a fair acheivement.

Jay wrote:

No, what I was aiming for was not religion or nationalism, what I was aiming for was the trust levels that those people tend to have amongst each other. There's something to be said for small town cultures where there's reduced anonymity and transience. I've lived in my home for nearly four years, but I hardly know my neighbors. One helped me when my snowblower broke a few years ago, and I helped one when she dropped a pair of pruners over my fence, but we haven't exactly invited each other to tea even though we live only a hundred feet apart from each other. The average American moves 11.4 times during their lifetime. I've moved 12 times myself at the age of 36.

It's hard to build trust in your neighbors when you move around so much and Americans simply don't trust each other (and they definitely don't trust their government). Transient lifestyles mean you are always a stranger, and strangers aren't to be trusted. Some of this aversion to strangers is for good reason, but I think the lion's share of the blame should go to the media who sensationalize everything. The rest should go to the salesman's culture we've developed. Everyone seems to always be trying to sell you something here. Dishonesty is in the very air we breathe.

This opinion piece sums up the ideal I'd rather aim for nicely: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles … hout-danes

And with increased trust we wouldn't have millions of people thinking they need to build an arsenal to feel safe in their own homes.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2018-02-23 21:33:28)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

No, what I was aiming for was not religion or nationalism, what I was aiming for was the trust levels that those people tend to have amongst each other. There's something to be said for small town cultures where there's reduced anonymity and transience. I've lived in my home for nearly four years, but I hardly know my neighbors. One helped me when my snowblower broke a few years ago, and I helped one when she dropped a pair of pruners over my fence, but we haven't exactly invited each other to tea even though we live only a hundred feet apart from each other. The average American moves 11.4 times during their lifetime. I've moved 12 times myself at the age of 36.

It's hard to build trust in your neighbors when you move around so much and Americans simply don't trust each other (and they definitely don't trust their government). Transient lifestyles mean you are always a stranger, and strangers aren't to be trusted. Some of this aversion to strangers is for good reason, but I think the lion's share of the blame should go to the media who sensationalize everything. The rest should go to the salesman's culture we've developed. Everyone seems to always be trying to sell you something here. Dishonesty is in the very air we breathe.

This opinion piece sums up the ideal I'd rather aim for nicely: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles … hout-danes

And with increased trust we wouldn't have millions of people thinking they need to build an arsenal to feel safe in their own homes.

We'll make a socialist of you yet

uziq wrote:

that's a very strange reading of why east germany had such an informer culture, but ok. there is nothing inherent in socialist thought and various other modes of communalism that lead to 'enforced mores'.

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

that's a very strange reading of why east germany had such an informer culture, but ok. there is nothing inherent in socialist thought and various other modes of communalism that lead to 'enforced mores'.

High trust levels are required to make it work. Otherwise everyone will assume they are being cheated by someone else and cheat themselves. Trust is built when everyone expects the other person to naturally do the right thing or be castigated. Normally this is informal - a glare, a cough etc. is usually enough to set the person right. This is undermined by things like moral relativism and multiculturalism which preach tolerance even when such tolerance is sometimes detrimental. Those who dare judge are labeled racist and silenced.

So what's the alternative if judging others and using peer pressure to enforce social norms becomes taboo? Some other power needs to stand in or else the entire system becomes bankrupt from abusers, and that power is government. More and more power is bestowed on the police in order to keep the people in line. You are living through it in your own country. There are cameras everywhere, thought police turn in people for making racist remarks online, and now they're even tracking your porn habits. Undoubtedly, they are collecting all of your email and text messages as well.

Personally, I'll take the peer pressure and judgement from my peers, which is what the Scandinavians get by with (although if the right wing hysteria has any grain of truth, this is being undermined by their immigrants).

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2018-02-24 17:42:41)

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

High trust levels are required to make it work. Otherwise everyone will assume they are being cheated by someone else and cheat themselves. Trust is built when everyone expects the other person to naturally do the right thing or be castigated. Normally this is informal - a glare, a cough etc. is usually enough to set the person right. This is undermined by things like moral relativism and multiculturalism which preach tolerance even when such tolerance is sometimes detrimental. Those who dare judge are labeled racist and silenced.

So what's the alternative if judging others and using peer pressure to enforce social norms becomes taboo? Some other power needs to stand in or else the entire system becomes bankrupt from abusers, and that power is government. More and more power is bestowed on the police in order to keep the people in line. You are living through it in your own country. There are cameras everywhere, thought police turn in people for making racist remarks online, and now they're even tracking your porn habits. Undoubtedly, they are collecting all of your email and text messages as well.

Personally, I'll take the peer pressure and judgement from my peers, which is what the Scandinavians get by with (although if the right wing hysteria has any grain of truth, this is being undermined by their immigrants).

The alternative is people can learn to behave themselves and cooperate with each other, for their own selfish benefit if nothing else.
The Nordic and Germanic countries are amongst the least policed in the world, recent migrants instinctively abuse the high levels of trust and low levels of policing.
I do agree the US is a lost cause, you'll never be like Canada, too many self-segregated ethnic groups and a genetically and societal high level of assholery thanks to the frontier days and their 'every-man-for-himself' mores.

I used to read the discussions among the Aussies here on the board and it was all very polite. You argued various policies but it felt like you were going in the same general direction together. American politics is picking a side and calling the other teams supporters Hitlerites. I generally like Americans but the ideological struggles that color our politics is sad. It doesn't help that we only have two parties to choose from and they take opposite positions on every topic. There's no unity, and certainly no trust.

War Man wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The alternative is people can learn to behave themselves and cooperate with each other, for their own selfish benefit if nothing else.
The Nordic and Germanic countries are amongst the least policed in the world, recent migrants instinctively abuse the high levels of trust and low levels of policing.
I do agree the US is a lost cause, you'll never be like Canada, too many self-segregated ethnic groups and a genetically and societal high level of assholery thanks to the frontier days and their 'every-man-for-himself' mores.

I used to read the discussions among the Aussies here on the board and it was all very polite. You argued various policies but it felt like you were going in the same general direction together. American politics is picking a side and calling the other teams supporters Hitlerites. I generally like Americans but the ideological struggles that color our politics is sad. It doesn't help that we only have two parties to choose from and they take opposite positions on every topic. There's no unity, and certainly no trust.

We would need preferential voting to even have a chance to have more than two parties. Bums me too that we only have two parties, but our voting system just encourages having two parties. At least that is how I feel about it.