BF2S Forums Presidential Election 2016

Appeals to "law and order" is always bullshit. People always pick and choose what they want and will skirt around the law to get get something or do something that appeals to them because they think they are special or deserve it. It is a bullshit phrase just like appeals to "state's right" when convenient. If you want to disincentivize future illegal immigration just say that instead falling back on tropes and buzzwords.

Anyway I can see the argument regarding future illegal immigration. Like I said, I am okay with enhanced border security. I think the wall is stupid but if it gets a general amnesty then I think it is worth it.

Deporting the DACA people and putting them in a line just hurts these people for no good reason. I don't support fucking these people over in order to make a political point. That is the sort of cruelty I was talking about earlier. It won't make any citizen's life any better.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

its crazy to me that people are worried that low-skilled, uneducated immigrants who can't speak english will take their jobs.

I don't know many people who have gone through our school system and don't feel they are above picking fruit in a field or working in a slaughterhouse. I certainly wouldn't want to do those jobs. If we block immigration I don't think the jobs would be taken by American-born people unless wages rose astronomically, but then they'd just be automated.

Why shouldn't the wages rise until the balance between available labour and the price of fruit and meat balances out? Shouldn't the free market be allowed to run its course?
How would it be if 'someone' decided that Americans deserved cheaper air-conditioning systems, that HVAC engineers wages were too high, that $10/hr was a more realistic wage and the immigration blocks must be lifted until wages came down to that level?
Allowing in a flood of illegals has destroyed wages in relatively low-skilled labour markets, and entirely distorted the working of the free market, its like having an experiment in a bell-jar with a hole in it. Its been entirely deliberate and because it doesn't directly affect you, in fact there's a benefit you seem fine with it - except Ken has noticed the H1 issue and seems a little concerned - maybe its a bit close to the bone for him.

I don't have a problem with wages rising and the higher prices that come with that, as long as it's market driven and not artificially inflated by politics a la the $15/hr minimum wage stupidity.

My point was that native born Americans feel entitled to a cushy life and the vast majority don't want to do grunt work like picking crops in a field. For the unskilled, welfare pays less but doesn't require any effort. Fuck working piecework when you can sit on your ass playing video games while some migrant picks your cherries for you. Farmers need migrant workers because they honestly can't get anyone else to do the labor. Yes, they should improve working conditions to make it more attractive to native born Americans, but at the end of the day there's only so much they can do. Harvest time is fast paced, backbreaking work and it's not steady. There's an entire segment of our population that essentially live like gypsies following the crop harvests all over the country. Try getting someone that was sold the American Dream story their entire life to live that life.

We can't even fill positions in the skilled trades, let alone unskilled labor. We have a multi-million person shortage in the skilled trades, welders, mechanics, electricians are all in short supply and they make really good money. Too many people going to college, but that's a different topic.

Deporting a bunch of people already living here will not make living in America less mathematically better than living in some crappy third world country for potential illegal immigrants. People will still keep trying to come here illegally no matter what we did with the current group short of gassing them. Mass deportations will just upset people who are otherwise open to changing immigration laws in a more conservative way.

Jay wrote:

I don't have a problem with wages rising and the higher prices that come with that, as long as it's market driven and not artificially inflated by politics a la the $15/hr minimum wage stupidity.

My point was that native born Americans feel entitled to a cushy life and the vast majority don't want to do grunt work like picking crops in a field. For the unskilled, welfare pays less but doesn't require any effort. Fuck working piecework when you can sit on your ass playing video games while some migrant picks your cherries for you. Farmers need migrant workers because they honestly can't get anyone else to do the labor. Yes, they should improve working conditions to make it more attractive to native born Americans, but at the end of the day there's only so much they can do. Harvest time is fast paced, backbreaking work and it's not steady. There's an entire segment of our population that essentially live like gypsies following the crop harvests all over the country. Try getting someone that was sold the American Dream story their entire life to live that life.

We can't even fill positions in the skilled trades, let alone unskilled labor. We have a multi-million person shortage in the skilled trades, welders, mechanics, electricians are all in short supply and they make really good money. Too many people going to college, but that's a different topic.

I would create some variant of minimum basic income which required people to work 20-30 hrs/wk for their benefits. Their remaining time they can do what they like, do more work, run a micro-business or whatever. Giving people dole and then making it hard to do minimal discretionary work on top is asinine. They have no pathway out of the benefits trap. And give people who work full time an additional tax break on their initial income to balance it out.
Otherwise yes all the old codgers I know say its impossible to get a young person to push anything heavier than a computer mouse.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Deporting a bunch of people already living here will not make living in America less mathematically better than living in some crappy third world country for potential illegal immigrants. People will still keep trying to come here illegally no matter what we did with the current group short of gassing them. Mass deportations will just upset people who are otherwise open to changing immigration laws in a more conservative way.

It will discourage the next group.
Travelling to America only to be sent straight back home would be mathematically worse than staying at home.
Which is a shame because I actually like hispanic girls.

Why would you want to bomb Iran? Saudis did 9/11 and Iran offered to help America catch them.

He just wants a war, any war, he doesn't care who its with.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I am disappointed that this president won't start a war to base Battlefield 7 off of.

That would decrease his chances of reelection, only a war we didn't start may not hurt him.

I get your point, but how would you argue the US triggered WW2?

Still not quite buying it; that just seems normal Imperialism 101. It sounds like Japan was wanting to aggressively expand and did so for years beforehand, but someone eventually tried to lightly urge them to knock it off. Japan wasn't the tiny nation backed into a corner and forced to attack. Japan was the spoiled kid told "no" for the first time in their life.

This isn't about the US, though. Japan was late to the party. If Japan had been able to claim "FIRST!!!!1!!!" on all those places as the European powers had, they wouldn't have run into nearly as much trouble.

Dilbert_X wrote:

But its the US which imposed the oil embargo - triggering the war causing Japan to opt for planning a secret attack as the first strike in expanding its wars to include the US, so apparently the US made it about the US.

FTFY