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You linked the lancet for an article about mushrooms, which weren't part of the discussion until you brought them in to try to recover your loss.

Pretty sure personality disorders, depression and schizophrenia are a little more serious than feeling a bit twitchy before your first cuppa.
Once unlocked does schizophrenia go away after a few days cold turkey?

uziq wrote:

http://thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/ar … xt?rss=yes

2nd para neatly summarises my whole point.

me and my anecdotes whilst you talk about 'brains being fried' like it's the norm. such a cuck.

You're really going to say that MDMA, Ketamine and LSD are 'safe' but coffee isn't?

Still waiting for a direct comparison between LSD and caffeine.

I was taking a preworkout drink that contains something stupid like 150mg of caffeine.  I had to stop taking it because it was fucking me up.  Seriously.  I would go workout at 5pm and couldn't go to bed until like 2am.  I don't drink coffee or energy drinks or soda so my body wasn't used to such a high dosage of caffeine. 

Fuck that shit.

Did I say I didn't know it had caffeine? I mean, it's actually listed right on the label...I wasn't just shooting in the dark when I said it had something like 150mg of caffeine.  It also has creatine and beta alanine and some other stuff i can't remember.

Would love to see you post your muscles you little twerp. Am also worried about your future as a lawyer with your lack of critical understanding. 

Let me know if you need a personal trainer and a tutor. I'm pretty cheap, but I'd probably also steal your imaginary asian gf.

huh?

uziq wrote:

derp derp derp.

So basically your arguments are:
Crack cocaine is  hard drug, cocaine is not quite as severe in its effect so therefore it must be a soft drug"
"LSD and DMT are less harmful than caffeine - which causes actual measurable harm, here is an article which proves it by saying mushrooms are pretty safe"
There's some disconnect in your head.

Would the medical community be recommending dangerous drugs for therapeutic purposes? Of course, they prescribe opiates all the time, and I bet they make as much money from treating side effects as they do from treating underlying conditions.

Have a big block of cheese and go for a swim. So cheese is harmful? Of course if you're dumb enough to knock back one of these stupid Brawndo drinks before exercise you're going to suffer.

Your argument rests on the fact that you enjoy taking hard drugs and you'll bend the facts to justify your aberrant lifestyle.

Still waiting for you to post something which shows caffeine is measurably more harmful than LSD.

Dilbert_X wrote:

So cheese is harmful?

Actually, now that you mention it...

All I've asked you to do is show me a study which shows that caffeine is more harmful than LSD, and how cocaine is not a hard drug when by every definition - except yours - it is.

Once again, we aren't discussing dependence or LD50, we talking about actual measurable harm.

Yes its very hard to OD on marijuana, in terms of actual harm its pretty high.

Here is the chart derpzique posted

http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/file … l-harm.png
It seems both LSD and Cannabis produce measurable harm, its a shame caffeine isn't on there.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2017-03-09 04:51:11)

how the fuck do you measure the 'harm' of a drug if you are cancelling out its chemical toxicity, its dependence ratio, and its lethal dose? haha. convenient how you don't want to pay attention to those.

my w h o l e point to finray was that drugs associated with extreme experiences and powerful and profound trips can be basically harmless to you as far as medicine and biochemistry are concerned. LSD and mushrooms are well known as having the least 'footprint' or 'comedown' of any psychoactive substance. that's all i said. you talking anecdotally about schizophrenia is really just pointless to argue with.

Last edited by uziq (2017-03-09 06:46:15)

'day-to-day harm for an average user of LSD or mushrooms'? do you know what the fuck you are talking about?

LSD and psilocybin metabolises very quickly and leaves the body. neither carry physical risks from toxicity or overdose. neither are toxic to the body. neither leave one with a physical hangover, a comedown, let alone an addiction or dependency. i.e. the effects of both are entirely transient, a 'trip', which may be unpleasant and emotional and challenging, but is very much a 'trip': you come back to where you started with no harm done. this was my only point to finray: everyday drugs like caffeine (and alcohol and tobacco, yes) incur a much bigger 'cost', i.e. harm, whereas these drugs are totally non-toxic. you won't get a headache withdrawing from them and you won't get a hangover.

my point was that caffeine technically does do more harm and involve more 'work' for your body to metabolise and process. caffeine is more toxic. the physical side-effects of consuming caffeine and the complications if you consume >300mg a day are multiple, involving cardiovascular health, bone and muscle health, and even fertility. the adverse physical effects – the HARM of caffeine is precisely why it comes with health warnings for children and women pregnant with a child. it has a PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECT. what you can't seem to understand is that LSD and mushrooms have NO physiological effect; a fit and healthy person, with no pre-existing mental health issues, can take a normal dose of them and suffer NO harm. this is why acid and mushrooms are being researched and recommended – in the lancet, by john hopkins university, in uk policy debates – as CURES and MEDICINE for depression. you really can't seem to get your head around that. caffeine is a STIMULANT: all stimulants have costs. they incur a debt, they put you in a hole, they mess with your serotonin and dopamine levels; your brain gets 'fried', to use your language. acid and mushrooms have almost ZERO metabolic footprint.

so to recapitulate. the known and well-documented risks and adverse side-effects of high caffeine use (i'll say > 300mg or 4-5+ cups a day):

CARDIOVASCULAR

(-) Caffeine is a vasoconstrictor and stimulant.

(-) Caffeine often increases blood pressure by contracting the heart and blood vessels in non-habitual users. Effects usually subside after 3 – 4 h.

(-) Caffeine changes the electro-physiological activity of the heart, increasing conductivity, even in limited doses.

(-) Heavy caffeine consumption raises (by about 2 mmol/L)the plasma levels of homocystine, a risk factor for heart disease.

(-) Caffeine raises plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels in non-habitual users.

(-) Coffee intake may raise serum cholesterol levels. Intakes of 5+ cups of unfiltered have been shown to raise cholesterol levels by 0.5 – 1.0 mmol/L (20 – 40 mg/dL).

GASTROINTESTINAL

(-) Caffeine stimulates gastric secretion. Some individuals are sensitive to caffeine and suffer ill effects such as acid indigestion, heartburn, abdominal pain, gas or constipation to varying degrees.

(-) Coffee can cause emesis (vomiting)

(-) Caffeine inhibits vassopressin, it acts as a powerful diuretic (it increases urination.)

(-) Liver metabolism is effected by methylxanthines such as caffeine. It increases the levels of cyclic AMP and decreases the level of branched chain and aromatic amino acids in plasma.

MUSCULAR/SKELETAL

(-) Caffeine can mobilize calcium from cells and may lead to bone mass loss.

(-) Caffeine consumption is a risk factor for osteoporosis.

(-) Caffeine affects skeletal muscle contractility.

(-) Tremor is a common side effect of caffeine consumption.

REPRODUCTIVE

(-) Caffeine, particularly in doses of 300mg (3 cups of coffee) or more per day, can result in both male and female infertility.

(-) In animal tests, high caffeine consumption was associated in poor pregnancy outcome: spontaneous abortion, congenital malformations, fetal growth retardation, and residual effects in the newborn.

RESPIRATORY

(-) Caffeine stimulates respiration. This effect is mediated by the neurotransmitters dopamine and seratonin.

caffeine is addictive. people are putting themselves through this physical process every single day. a person will take acid or mushrooms once in their life, perhaps, and attain a new spiritual perspective. 'day to day harm'? nobody takes psychedelics on a day-to-day basis. they are non-addictive and have the LOWEST abuse potential of ANY drug. nobody is doing mushrooms one a week or taking acid at every party they go to; they are not party drugs.

the ONLY long-term harmful effects of hallucinogens are persistent psychoses such as schizophrenia. these present in a fractional number of people with pre-existing mental health issues or genetic predisposition, the same slice of unfortunate people who will suffer persistent psychoses from weed use. weed has now been medically approved in most of the united states so evidently the medical profession considers these percentage to be infinitesimally low. you talk about these nightmare psychotic scenarios as if they are common for acid users. it is disingenuous in the extreme.

Last edited by uziq (2017-03-09 13:16:38)

The pharmacology of LSD is indeed quite complex, which may, in part, explain why its mechanisms of action remain unclear. LSD is physiologically well tolerated and there is no evidence for long-lasting effects on brain and other parts of the human organism ... hallucinogen re- search did indeed lead to the discovery of serotonin, brain second-messenger systems, and a variety of other re- search techniques such as prepulse inhibition and the use of animals for detection of activation of specific subrecep- tors. The research of LSD faded after these advancements and also because the clinical promises failed to be realized while illicit use of hallucinogens pressured governments into taking police action against such use. Government funding of research dried up, as well, and a generation of scientists moved on to other topics. Today, LSD and other hallucinogens are once again being evaluated for spe- cific purposes, such as for treatment of cluster headache and as tools in therapy for working with those suffering from anxiety provoking end-of-life issues and for post- traumatic stress disorder. As these new studies move for- ward, it is hoped that this present paper will be a roadmap for also securing the data missing from our knowledge of the pharmacology of LSD.

http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3 … 3067_1.pdf

The massive popularity of caffeine has created a need to discover the possible inflictions on the human body. By delving into the biochemical characteristics of caffeine, findings on its structure and chemical properties have led to findings on its function, absorption in the body and metabolism. The neurophysiological benefits of caffeine are brief and ironically could lead to health disadvantages. Therefore in order to obtain the benefits consumption should be limited to moderate doses. The neurophysiological health disadvantages of caffeine include anxiety and panic attacks and hallucinations brought about by above moderate doses of caffeine. In addition to this caffeine may impair learning and memory. However, most alarming is the similarity of caffeine to other drugs such as morphine, heroin, ethanol, and most importantly to cocaine. Caffeine shows the most similarity to cocaine and reinforces cocaine-seeking behavior after elimination of the drug. This finding strengthens the argument that the potential of caffeine dependence is high and awareness of this should be created.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198027/

the fact there are even discussions dovetailing with terms such as 'dependence', 'withdrawal', 'abuse' etc. in discussions of caffeine should make it obvious enough that stimulants are physiologically and psychologically harmful in a way that psychedelics are not. can you get the image of people having bad trips out of your mind for one second and actually look at the matter plainly? to quote john hopkins, "psilocybin is not regarded as addictive or as toxic to the brain, liver, or other organs." you LITERALLY cannot say that about caffeine without contradicting all of the medical evidence.

Last edited by uziq (2017-03-09 13:13:54)