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2016-06-21 18:50:35
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The existence of the occupy movement/angry white middle class 20 somethings doesn't negate the idea that providing access to higher education to people who otherwise couldn't afford it is a good thing.

I would really like you to read what you wrote.  Most poor people can't read, write or multiply.  Really dude?
Yes. Compare test scores across school districts. Look at math and reading proficiency scores on standardized tests.

I spend a lot of time in public schools because of my job, and the kids that live in nice neighborhoods are on a completely different plane than kids in poor neighborhoods. Go into a nice neighborhood and they'll have one security guard at the front desk, and she'll be in a great mood. Go to the poor school and they'll have guards on every floor and three at the front door and they'll be miserable because they're constantly answering calls. The underclass in this country doesn't have a fucking chance man. Don't talk about free college as if it's gonna be some big lift up out of the ghetto for them. They're stuck in a culture that gives two shits about education and for the most part they're thoroughly unqualified for college. I'm just talking about natives here, poor immigrants tend to kick ass, but they also have parents that scrape and scrounge and save and get their kids into college without your handout.

Last edited by Jay (2016-06-21 18:50:57)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-21 18:58:43
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6853|949

cool anecdotes, bro.

Do I think providing free college education to everyone is going to magically lift up the underclass in one generation?  Of course not.  You seem to promote giving up on poor people.  I don't and never will.

Education is an equalizer.  There are only positive benefits from an educated population.  I can't really wrap my mind around any logic that would argue against this, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, I have my own anecdotes about otherwise eligible people in the middle class (some of my own friends) forgoing college because of the expense.  Some people don't even factor in the idea of a higher education because of the cost.  That would change if the option for a debt-free college education were available.
2016-06-21 19:00:15
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

cool anecdotes, bro.

Do I think providing free college education to everyone is going to magically lift up the underclass in one generation?  Of course not.  You seem to promote giving up on poor people.  I don't and never will.

Education is an equalizer.  There are only positive benefits from an educated population.  I can't really wrap my mind around any logic that would argue against this, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, I have my own anecdotes about otherwise eligible people in the middle class (some of my own friends) forgoing college because of the expense.  Some people don't even factor in the idea of a higher education because of the cost.  That would change if the option for a debt-free college education were available.
So you're not refuting anything I said. Thanks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-21 19:00:35
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6906|United States of America

SuperJail Warden wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I don't really put any weight in any politician saying they won't raise taxes, so I agree any claim regarding tax rates is pandering.  However, the middle class has been shrinking for the last 40 years or so, and the middle class is an economic engine.  The middle class needs support.  Wealth is being consolidated - I know I don't have to show a graph to you explaining this, because at this point it is well-known and indisputable.  Everyone is suffering except for the top 1% - their wealth is growing. 

Providing free education helps level the playing field.  Yes, the middle class will be a winner in this.  So will the poverty-stricken.  A college degree helps you earn more money - I know you know this because you used an example of Clinton's college plan for latinos in this very thread.

Poverty isn't going to be solved by providing free college education.  It's a good step though.  I'm still kind of scratching my head why you are arguing about this.  It seems your only argument is that a free college education benefits the middle class too?
I agree that the middle class needs more support. I just disagree with you where that support should be given. I haven't heard of Clinton's plans for Latinos? I complained a lot regarding Sanders free college plan. You probably misremembered.

My issue is: I am 100% okay with raising taxes on the wealthy. I am not crazy enough to think that there won't be economic consequences though. And if we are going to deal with those consequences, I rather they are a result of spending the money on a group of who need support more and on a cause that is more important than making sure the average middle class college graduate can avoid a monthly student loan payment. I can think of a dozen things that the $80 billion Sanders proposes to spend that would be better than handing it over to colleges.

And it is really irking that the Bernie supporters going around telling everyone about Sander's college plan and the other great things he plans to do for the middle class are also some of the most classist and selfish individuals around. They aren't going to go to the rally for the school's janitor's union because they don't give a shit about the janitor and their union. They never did and never will. They just want free shit.
Personally, it's odd that I'm having to argue with you about the (as we've established) incorrectly referenced "free college", since that is one aspect of his platform that I don't quite agree on. College needs to be more affordable, but the way Bachelor's degrees have become equivalent to high school diplomas troubles me far more. Not everyone needs a 4 year degree to do a job (I probably don't even need it to do mine), and I know shitloads of people use college only as a time to get drunk, get laid, and have the last hurrah before actions are supposed to have consequences. We need more options for education to make it affordable and beneficial to all.
2016-06-21 19:05:09
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6853|949

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

cool anecdotes, bro.

Do I think providing free college education to everyone is going to magically lift up the underclass in one generation?  Of course not.  You seem to promote giving up on poor people.  I don't and never will.

Education is an equalizer.  There are only positive benefits from an educated population.  I can't really wrap my mind around any logic that would argue against this, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, I have my own anecdotes about otherwise eligible people in the middle class (some of my own friends) forgoing college because of the expense.  Some people don't even factor in the idea of a higher education because of the cost.  That would change if the option for a debt-free college education were available.
So you're not refuting anything I said. Thanks.
haha you're right, I'm not refuting your own personal experiences.  WTF is wrong with this place?
2016-06-21 19:08:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

cool anecdotes, bro.

Do I think providing free college education to everyone is going to magically lift up the underclass in one generation?  Of course not.  You seem to promote giving up on poor people.  I don't and never will.

Education is an equalizer.  There are only positive benefits from an educated population.  I can't really wrap my mind around any logic that would argue against this, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

For what it's worth, I have my own anecdotes about otherwise eligible people in the middle class (some of my own friends) forgoing college because of the expense.  Some people don't even factor in the idea of a higher education because of the cost.  That would change if the option for a debt-free college education were available.
So you're not refuting anything I said. Thanks.
haha you're right, I'm not refuting your own personal experiences.  WTF is wrong with this place?
So you think that poor kids will qualify for and graduate from college in droves if only they had better access. How did that work out when UC was only $1500 a year back in the 90s? Oh, right, California had and still has a massive underclass. I bet all those Orange County kids loved the essentially free ride though. More money for beer.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-21 19:14:53
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6853|949

One of my biggest regrets in life (and I've mentioned it on here many times) was not accepting money from my parents for college.  I didn't realize how much of a head start I would get by graduating without debt.

I think I paid around $16K a year at UCLA in the early 2000's.  But sure, they must have raised the tuition 10x in 10 years.  Or you could be (gasp!) fucking WRONG!

I believe providing free or severely subsidized education has only positive benefits for a society.  As opposed to your bleak "they are doomed, they will never pull themselves up" mentality.
2016-06-21 19:29:58
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

One of my biggest regrets in life (and I've mentioned it on here many times) was not accepting money from my parents for college.  I didn't realize how much of a head start I would get by graduating without debt.

I think I paid around $16K a year at UCLA in the early 2000's.  But sure, they must have raised the tuition 10x in 10 years.  Or you could be (gasp!) fucking WRONG!

I believe providing free or severely subsidized education has only positive benefits for a society.  As opposed to your bleak "they are doomed, they will never pull themselves up" mentality.
When I was looking at colleges in the late 90s, I think UC schools were around $3,000 a year. I was seriously considering moving out there for a year to establish residency in order to get the in-state rate.

And again, I was simply agreeing with Mac that the free college crap is a handout to people who don't really need it. To use the terms you learned in your sociology 101 class, they're already privileged, they don't need help. $30,000 in student loans is what the average graduate walks out with. To a 22 year old kid, that's a lot of money. Fast forward ten years and it's a drop in the fucking bucket. It's the cost of a new car or less than one year of my damn mortgage payment. I already pay enough in taxes. Fuck off asking me to pay for some privileged white kid's college experience, because that's what most people seem to attend college for, the experience and the slip of paper at the end, not an education.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-21 20:31:20
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6937

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

One of my biggest regrets in life (and I've mentioned it on here many times) was not accepting money from my parents for college.  I didn't realize how much of a head start I would get by graduating without debt.

I think I paid around $16K a year at UCLA in the early 2000's.  But sure, they must have raised the tuition 10x in 10 years.  Or you could be (gasp!) fucking WRONG!

I believe providing free or severely subsidized education has only positive benefits for a society.  As opposed to your bleak "they are doomed, they will never pull themselves up" mentality.
If there are federal loans for universities, it should be capped at a certain amount tbh.

We're getting a huge problem in Aus where private tertiary companies are essentially getting free government money at the expense of students...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2016-06-22 03:31:58
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

I already pay enough in taxes. Fuck off asking me to pay for some privileged white kid's college experience, because that's what most people seem to attend college for, the experience and the slip of paper at the end, not an education.
Someone paid for your college Jay, and you didn't have the balls to take out a loan on your own account.

Dilbert_X's opinion:

A solid college education should be available to the top 30% of the population by academic assessment, it should be paid for by the tax-payer and fees at govt universities should be capped at a reasonable level. Most courses only require a large room and a succession of lecturers, it shouldn't cost much to run.
If you're there 'for the experience' you'll likely come up short in your first year and get booted.

For the remainder technology or trade courses should be available, also free.

For anyone who doesn't like either of the above, or who slacked through school, they can go straight to a job.

This is how a good, well educated society is built, not two diverging streams of those whose parents have money and those whose parents don't.

Dilbert_X is awesome, Dilbert_X will solve all your problems, Dilbert_X could and should be your next President.
Fuck Israel
2016-06-22 04:30:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

I already pay enough in taxes. Fuck off asking me to pay for some privileged white kid's college experience, because that's what most people seem to attend college for, the experience and the slip of paper at the end, not an education.
Someone paid for your college Jay, and you didn't have the balls to take out a loan on your own account.

Dilbert_X's opinion:

A solid college education should be available to the top 30% of the population by academic assessment, it should be paid for by the tax-payer and fees at govt universities should be capped at a reasonable level. Most courses only require a large room and a succession of lecturers, it shouldn't cost much to run.
If you're there 'for the experience' you'll likely come up short in your first year and get booted.

For the remainder technology or trade courses should be available, also free.

For anyone who doesn't like either of the above, or who slacked through school, they can go straight to a job.

This is how a good, well educated society is built, not two diverging streams of those whose parents have money and those whose parents don't.

Dilbert_X is awesome, Dilbert_X will solve all your problems, Dilbert_X could and should be your next President.
Ahh, but we live in snowflake land where you can't ever tell someone they don't have the ability or drive to succeed. Top 30%? Pshaw. Everyone deserves to go to taxpayer funded colleges. We're all equal dontchaknow
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 04:34:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
But I can count on your vote yes?
Fuck Israel
2016-06-22 04:43:25
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England
I would be more inclined to agree to pay for it if it were limited to people who actually earned it for something other than possessing a pulse. Top 30% seems reasonable.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 09:18:39
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6902|Disaster Free Zone
Sending everyone to University is just pointless, not everyone is academically inclined and paying for them to just have a 4 year piss up is beyond stupid. But if you are capable and can prove it through high school achievement then there should be as few other barriers to entry as possible.

But as Mac has been sort of implying(even if he didn't mean to), college is not a stand alone issue and the entire education system needs reform. The point of free (or cheap) college is so the less privileged get an equal opportunity at education, but that should be true for all years from K up, which (admittedly as an outsider looking in) does not seem to be the case currently.
2016-06-22 09:57:35
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6853|949

it's weird that people automatically assume that providing free college means everyone will go to college.  I can't think critically for you guys.  I'm guessing you didn't get a great quality education.  You probably would have not made the cut for government aid, so now I can understand why you are against it.
2016-06-22 12:11:04
uziq
Member
+493|3673
jay 'only the top 30% of academic performers should have free college education'.

jay 'i sat in the middle-east for a few years playing xbox in a bunker with a bunch of bros and went to a college way outside the top third, for free'
2016-06-22 15:08:51
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

uziq wrote:

jay 'only the top 30% of academic performers should have free college education'.

jay 'i sat in the middle-east for a few years playing xbox in a bunker with a bunch of bros and went to a college way outside the top third, for free'
I went to a top high school and scored in the 94th percentile on my SATs. I've already stated why I attended the college I did, and have zero regrets. I know it's a shock to someone as insecure as you, but the brand name of your college doesn't define you or the education you acquire.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 15:11:30
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3941

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

jay 'only the top 30% of academic performers should have free college education'.

jay 'i sat in the middle-east for a few years playing xbox in a bunker with a bunch of bros and went to a college way outside the top third, for free'
I went to a top high school and scored in the 94th percentile on my SATs. I've already stated why I attended the college I did, and have zero regrets. I know it's a shock to someone as insecure as you, but the brand name of your college doesn't define you or the education you acquire.
Why didn't you get a scholarship?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2016-06-22 15:13:15
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

jay 'only the top 30% of academic performers should have free college education'.

jay 'i sat in the middle-east for a few years playing xbox in a bunker with a bunch of bros and went to a college way outside the top third, for free'
I went to a top high school and scored in the 94th percentile on my SATs. I've already stated why I attended the college I did, and have zero regrets. I know it's a shock to someone as insecure as you, but the brand name of your college doesn't define you or the education you acquire.
Why didn't you get a scholarship?
Because I had too much sex and played too many video games and my grades were shit. Classic underachiever.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 18:11:59
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6930|England. Stoke
Aren't SATs multiple choice?
2016-06-22 18:20:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

coke wrote:

Aren't SATs multiple choice?
Yes
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 18:23:37
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6930|England. Stoke

Jay wrote:

coke wrote:

Aren't SATs multiple choice?
Yes
All throughout or there written sections etc.?
I just had a look at a "sample" one on a google search but it was the maths section and I've always been shit at mental arithmetic (are calculators allowed? I presume so looking at some the questions).

Last edited by coke (2016-06-22 18:28:30)

2016-06-22 18:30:45
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:

coke wrote:

Aren't SATs multiple choice?
Yes
All throughout or there written sections etc.?
I just had a look at a "sample" one on a google search but it was the maths section and I've always been shit at mental arithmetic (are calculators allowed?).
When I took it, yeah. They added an essay a few years later but have since abandoned it. It was strictly math and reading. I believe a simple calculator was allowed.

They also have tests called the SAT II which are subject specific. I took two of those and they both had an essay section.

Last edited by Jay (2016-06-22 18:31:26)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2016-06-22 18:37:11
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6930|England. Stoke

Jay wrote:

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:


Yes
All throughout or there written sections etc.?
I just had a look at a "sample" one on a google search but it was the maths section and I've always been shit at mental arithmetic (are calculators allowed?).
When I took it, yeah. They added an essay a few years later but have since abandoned it. It was strictly math and reading. I believe a simple calculator was allowed.

They also have tests called the SAT II which are subject specific. I took two of those and they both had an essay section.
Ah fair enough like I say math is my weakest subject no calculator 1am and drunk and I think I got a few right before I gave up
Math and Satistics were the only subjects I didn't A in GCSE all those years ago...
2016-06-22 18:54:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5579|London, England

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:

coke wrote:


All throughout or there written sections etc.?
I just had a look at a "sample" one on a google search but it was the maths section and I've always been shit at mental arithmetic (are calculators allowed?).
When I took it, yeah. They added an essay a few years later but have since abandoned it. It was strictly math and reading. I believe a simple calculator was allowed.

They also have tests called the SAT II which are subject specific. I took two of those and they both had an essay section.
Ah fair enough like I say math is my weakest subject no calculator 1am and drunk and I think I got a few right before I gave up
Math and Satistics were the only subjects I didn't A in GCSE all those years ago...
I was always shit at math. I never understood the point of learning trigonometry or cared about geometry. Now I'm an engineer. Go figure.

When I started engineering school I basically had to re-teach myself math from scratch. The first year was painful, but I got through it. I was so obsessed with actually understanding the stuff that my wife had to force me to go on a ski trip with her and her family, and I spent the entire trip in the lodge studying calculus instead of having fun.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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