BF2S Forums Presidential Election 2016

those are systematic changes to the primary electoral process he is advocating for, yes.  They aren't the only changes he wants.  He is trying to push a more progressive platform to the Democratic Party.  This has been a loud message for at least two weeks.

Both Repub and Demo primary processes have changed more than once in the last 50 years.  It's really just a matter of what the respective parties want to make sure no rogues (like Bernie and Trump now, or someone like George McGovern in the 70's) make it to the nominee stage.  Of course he wants those changes - it would give someone like him a higher likelihood of winning the nomination. 

I didn't drink the Sanders kool-aid - I support someone who has 50+ years of backing up words with action.  I don't support someone who says whatever they need to in order to win vote shares without demonstrating action on those words.  Many of my issues with American economic and political realities are in line with what Sanders fights for.  It's weird to me to think that despite you knowing very well what my particular gripes are and what Bernie advocates for, you still refer to me as a Bernie bot or whatever.  Of course I am - I've been arguing the same stuff he has for 10 years on this forum - and I really think economic stratification, wild west capitalism and with the evolution of politics for sale to the highest bidder are the most important issues facing America today.  I'll tell you some that aren't - Syria, Libya and ISIS.

The reality is I value action, you value rhetoric.  I learned through many failed romantic relationships that actions speak louder than words for me.  You probably have a different life experience that allows you to trust what people say without them demonstrating true conviction.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

those are systematic changes to the primary electoral process he is advocating for, yes.  They aren't the only changes he wants.  He is trying to push a more progressive platform to the Democratic Party.  This has been a loud message for at least two weeks.

Both Repub and Demo primary processes have changed more than once in the last 50 years.  It's really just a matter of what the respective parties want to make sure no rogues (like Bernie and Trump now, or someone like George McGovern in the 70's) make it to the nominee stage.  Of course he wants those changes - it would give someone like him a higher likelihood of winning the nomination. 

I didn't drink the Sanders kool-aid - I support someone who has 50+ years of backing up words with action.  I don't support someone who says whatever they need to in order to win vote shares without demonstrating action on those words.  Many of my issues with American economic and political realities are in line with what Sanders fights for.  It's weird to me to think that despite you knowing very well what my particular gripes are and what Bernie advocates for, you still refer to me as a Bernie bot or whatever.  Of course I am - I've been arguing the same stuff he has for 10 years on this forum - and I really think economic stratification, wild west capitalism and with the evolution of politics for sale to the highest bidder are the most important issues facing America today.  I'll tell you some that aren't - Syria, Libya and ISIS.

The reality is I value action, you value rhetoric.  I learned through many failed romantic relationships that actions speak louder than words for me.  You probably have a different life experience that allows you to trust what people say without them demonstrating true conviction.

He mentioned nothing about progressive changes in the platform when he had the chance. I mean he said something about giving working class a voice but that isn't concrete. That isn't a policy goal you can put to work like something regarding education reform and changes. He basically just listed things in the primary that up set him. Not good.

"We need a person at the leadership at the DNC who is vigorously supporting and out working to bring people into the political process," Sanders said, before stressing the need for "the most progressive platform ever passed by the Democratic Party. A platform which makes it crystal clear that the Democratic Party is on the side of working people."

The Vermont senator called for replacing Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, enabling open primaries so non-registered Democrats can vote, and better staffing to prevent long lines and difficulty being able to vote. Sanders pointed to Arizona, where both Democratic and Republican officials denounced the long lines and fewer polling stations available in the March 22 primary. Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton won that contest.

"How many people simply gave up their right to vote — gave up their right to vote and walked away," Sanders said. "We are taking for granted that in California it will take weeks for votes to be counted and I'm not sure the votes have yet been counted in Puerto Rico."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/b … z4BhTRhEo0

What has Sanders accomplished in his 50 years in government?. Can you give me a few bills or major changes he had enacted? I can't recall any. He has been on the fringe getting nothing done for 50 years. That isn't something to be proud of. Getting nothing done but remaining pure or whatever.

Bernie is nothing but talk He doesn't even know the details of how he is going to do things like "break up the banks". Hillary puts out detailed plans for things. Bernie doesn't.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing … mmunities/

Do I like her as a human? Eh. Does she know what she is talking about and has detailed ways to get it done? Yes. Does she have high levels of accomplishment and connections in government. Yes. Bernie has neither.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc … 71331.html

Sanders is pushing for his policy views to be included in the party's platform and wants the party to become more inclusive of independent and working-class voters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics … story.html

Sen. Bernie Sanders was given unprecedented say over the Democratic Party platform Monday in a move party leaders hope will soothe a bitter split with backers of the longshot challenger to Hillary Clinton — and Sanders immediately used his new power to name a well-known advocate for Palestinian rights to help draft Democratic policy.
The senator from Vermont was allowed to choose nearly as many members of the Democratic Party platform-writing body as Clinton, who is expected to clinch the nomination next month. That influence resulted from an agreement worked out this month between the two candidates and party officials, the party announced Monday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli … /85826716/

WASHINGTON — Sen. Bernie Sanders called Tuesday for a “fundamental transformation” of the Democratic Party that would include new leadership at the Democratic National Committee, electoral reform and a progressive agenda that makes it "crystal clear" Democrats stand with working people and the poor.

Do you understand you can accomplish things outside of government that give you credentials to work within government?  Was Hillary protesting for civil rights in the 60's?  Was she standing on picket lines in the 2010's?  Does she have a congressional voting record that aligns with her rhetoric?

It's incredible that you say Bernie is nothing but talk when Bernie has literally acted on things that are important to him, whereas Hillary talks about all these things but is firmly in the hands of concentrated capital. 

He does engage in rhetoric - however, I firmly believe he does actually want to "break up the banks".  Sure, who the fuck knows how to do that.  At least he is calling for it.  Hillary talks about putting Wall Street in their place yet takes money from ALL the big financial institutions.  She is a hypocrite at best, and a slimy piece of shit politician who will say anything to grab power at worst.

You are voting for a piece of shit human being.  I hope you can sleep at night knowing that.

DesertFox- wrote:

In quickly just browsing his Wikipedia article, I see his first elected office was in 1980, so the "50 years in government" isn't quite so. You may also be surprised to learn that most congressmen or senators are not wholly responsible for large-scale sweeping legislation. A legislators legacy is their votes for good things that pass and against bad things that are avoided. He's not exactly on the fringe if he votes with most Democrats almost all of the time. Further, it's hard to have a "fringe" for what amounts to "yes" or "no" decision on bills. You'd have a pretty hard time making a case for most members of Congress to run for the presidency based on things they accomplished alone during their time in office.

If you want to see a smattering of achievements, you can read the wiki. If you want something more in-depth, search through his votes in Congress since 1990 on one of the policy search engines on your own.

tl;dr: nothing. thanks for that.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2016-06-15 20:05:19)

SuperJail Warden wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

In quickly just browsing his Wikipedia article, I see his first elected office was in 1980, so the "50 years in government" isn't quite so. You may also be surprised to learn that most congressmen or senators are not wholly responsible for large-scale sweeping legislation. A legislators legacy is their votes for good things that pass and against bad things that are avoided. He's not exactly on the fringe if he votes with most Democrats almost all of the time. Further, it's hard to have a "fringe" for what amounts to "yes" or "no" decision on bills. You'd have a pretty hard time making a case for most members of Congress to run for the presidency based on things they accomplished alone during their time in office.

If you want to see a smattering of achievements, you can read the wiki. If you want something more in-depth, search through his votes in Congress since 1990 on one of the policy search engines on your own.

tl;dr: nothing. thanks for that.

It's not my job to do your own research, especially if you've already decided on your conclusions. You can't even be bothered to read a biographic article in which you would find the information for which you are looking.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Can you point out specific things he did in congress besides voting with the Ds? Fox couldn't. Can you?

What specific things are you looking for? His name without a co-sponsor on a piece of legislation you'd recognize that was passed and drastically altered the country? I will save your time on that one and point out it doesn't exist. You probably couldn't find a similar bill for that checks all those boxes from Clinton during her time in Congress. Your white whale is ridiculous.

Last edited by DesertFox- (2016-06-15 21:10:51)

Macbeth wrote:

"I'm not anti-semetic, but magic Jew this, <slur> that."

You make it too easy.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Guys, the discussion is over, a gay muslim has handed the election to Trump.

Also, half the population is below average intelligence - Trump is counting on the stupid vote.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2016-06-20 05:17:38)

uziq wrote:

the west is a fading star. we've entered the political senescence of the 'protest vote'. as we lose our concrete grip economically, we're going to get more and more excrescences like this as the people get increasingly shifty and frustrated. politics is no longer about vision, ideals, or even solid policy. it's now about futile gestures and emotionalism.

That sounds like all of the loser liberals voting third party because Bernie didn't win.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

uziq wrote:

the west is a fading star. we've entered the political senescence of the 'protest vote'. as we lose our concrete grip economically, we're going to get more and more excrescences like this as the people get increasingly shifty and frustrated. politics is no longer about vision, ideals, or even solid policy. it's now about futile gestures and emotionalism.

That sounds like all of the loser liberals voting third party because Bernie didn't win.

bernie or trump, they're both alternatives to a perceived establishment, aren't they?

I find it strange that people have called Sanders an outsider, when he has been in Congress for over two decades. He's a bit different from your run-of-the-mill Democrat or Republican who you could paint as the privileged government worker hobnobbing with wealthy bankers and businessmen, but he's still very much a part of the "establishment". Contrasted with Trump, who has never held a public office, it seems a very big difference.

DesertFox- wrote:

I find it strange that people have called Sanders an outsider, when he has been in Congress for over two decades. He's a bit different from your run-of-the-mill Democrat or Republican who you could paint as the privileged government worker hobnobbing with wealthy bankers and businessmen, but he's still very much a part of the "establishment". Contrasted with Trump, who has never held a public office, it seems a very big difference.

well it's no different from Corbyn in the uk – who was an MP way out in the hinterlands of history for decades and now has become the leader of the opposition. protest votes don't mean candidates have to be total outsiders – just not the party line or establishment position, I.e. people with an ordinary chance of winning.