Reports at least 160 dead for now
Relegion of peace.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
The number is still fluctuating. Doesn't really make it any better or worse, though.Adams_BJ wrote:
Reports at least 160 dead for now
The euros have been importing the savages for a while now.. It was simply a matter of time.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I don't know who's currently more smug about this. The extremists who pull off stuff like it or the American ultra-right that loves to pound its chest over it. But I feel like falling in step behind the possible budding of a world police state just to occasionally counter these kinds of things is jumping the gun a bit.
our first mistake was exporting our own religious nutcases. look what you guys have gone and done! you pissed them off!13rin wrote:
The euros have been importing the savages for a while now.. It was simply a matter of time.
- SuperJail Warden
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We should have invaded Syria back when they used chemical weapons on their own people. This never would have happened if the Obama administration didn't disengage from Iraq and Syria after the withdrawal.
This post is too perfect. You can almost cut and paste Syria for Iraq in 1988 with their chemical attacks. Obama's red line did appear to be a mistake politically, but even if he did send troops, can you imagine how grossly unpopular that move would be? Not to mention they'd still have to build ties and fight with some of the same rebels who became IS.SuperJail Warden wrote:
We should have invaded Syria back when they used chemical weapons on their own people. This never would have happened if the Obama administration didn't disengage from Iraq and Syria after the withdrawal.
america would have gotten its ass kicked in syria. you couldn't even handle iraq when the whole army surrendered. or goat farmers in afghanistan. you guys keep talking about syria, iran, north korea etc. as if you could even do a fucking thing.
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Syria's demographics, culture, location, and ground situation would have made regime change in Syria go a lot smoother than Iraq. A lot less people would have died. There have been more deaths in Syria than there was while we were in Iraq the whole time. And Iraq was still in one piece when we left. They failed themselves.
lol...
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Good point
Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2015-11-14 12:07:05)
yeah, "iraq failed themselves" is some rock-solid thinking as well. as well as the glib, armchair general stuff. how would the syrian invasion have gone a 'lot smoother than iraq'? iraq was militarily won in about a night. the army capitulated. the entire command structure gave up. there was no 'war' in conventional terms. a night of strategic strikes and then a protracted man-hunt for a guy whose chain of command had pretty much abandoned him, or were cynically looking for an exit strategy. compare that to assad's regime, which is nowhere near the same kettle of fish. how the hell would an invasion of syria gone any smoother? they've been engaged in a civil war for nigh on half a decade – a well organised government force, quite ideologically committed. that's why there has been more deaths in syria since. what a lousy piece of thinking to conclude that you could have done a better job in syria because iraq has had less deaths. i don't even know how to counter such a gap-toothed syllogism.
Last edited by uziq (2015-11-14 12:14:22)
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God so many misinformed liberal talking points. It is obvious you don't follow things very closely.
First off, the Iraqi army didn't just give up. The Iraqi insurgency was planned for months prior to the war starting. They stockpiled weapons and invited in Sunni militants in to fight. Many of ISIS' commanders are people who were part of Saddam's intelligence services.
When we left Iraq, AQII was mostly dormant. The northern Sunni tribes were well armed comiitted to peace with the U.S. After we left, the Shia sectarian government in Baghdad started marginalizing Sunni leaders and the Sunni tribes in the north invited ISIS in. We left it in good shape politically. Their Iran backed government led to Iraq's current insurgency.
Assad's regime is not well organized and hardened. They are anything but. If it wasn't for Hezbollah, Afghan mercenaries, and Iranian Revoltionary Guard, the government of Syria would have collapsed by now. The Shia Alawates are 13% of the population compared to 80% Sunni. They are mostly on the coast. They do not have numbers to fight this war to the end on their own. The NDF militia that comprises the majority of Syrian government forces were openly organized by Iranian special forces. The government is a mess. There would have been less deaths if Iran and Russia not backed Assad and let Syria organically collapse. Instead they prolonged it.
The FSA and Kurds are already committed to working with the U.S. The Turkey and Gulf state backed Islamist JaH already coordinates with the FSA. AQ's official branch JaN is allied with them both and considered at one point to dissolve completely into JaH. The rebels already keep peace, proviide services, cooperate with friendly governments. They are accepted by the Sunni majority of the country. They could have been used to build the basis of a security force.
Of course that window is now closed because Russia is in Syria and Obama is weaker and disengaged
First off, the Iraqi army didn't just give up. The Iraqi insurgency was planned for months prior to the war starting. They stockpiled weapons and invited in Sunni militants in to fight. Many of ISIS' commanders are people who were part of Saddam's intelligence services.
When we left Iraq, AQII was mostly dormant. The northern Sunni tribes were well armed comiitted to peace with the U.S. After we left, the Shia sectarian government in Baghdad started marginalizing Sunni leaders and the Sunni tribes in the north invited ISIS in. We left it in good shape politically. Their Iran backed government led to Iraq's current insurgency.
Assad's regime is not well organized and hardened. They are anything but. If it wasn't for Hezbollah, Afghan mercenaries, and Iranian Revoltionary Guard, the government of Syria would have collapsed by now. The Shia Alawates are 13% of the population compared to 80% Sunni. They are mostly on the coast. They do not have numbers to fight this war to the end on their own. The NDF militia that comprises the majority of Syrian government forces were openly organized by Iranian special forces. The government is a mess. There would have been less deaths if Iran and Russia not backed Assad and let Syria organically collapse. Instead they prolonged it.
The FSA and Kurds are already committed to working with the U.S. The Turkey and Gulf state backed Islamist JaH already coordinates with the FSA. AQ's official branch JaN is allied with them both and considered at one point to dissolve completely into JaH. The rebels already keep peace, proviide services, cooperate with friendly governments. They are accepted by the Sunni majority of the country. They could have been used to build the basis of a security force.
Of course that window is now closed because Russia is in Syria and Obama is weaker and disengaged
Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2015-11-14 13:38:12)
- SuperJail Warden
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And finally, I don't understand why so many Americans are so enthusiastic about Assad. He let Sunni militants use eastern Syria as a base to commit insurgency in Iraq. He is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Even if you ignore the indiscriminate barrel bombings of his people, he is not your friend.
I don't get my views on the middle east from liberal bien pensant opinion. I think the recent history of the region has shown that, better the devil you know...
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The devil we know and the best person to support and hold Syria together is the guy that couldn't hold Syria together and started a civil war by shooting protesters. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to want to support Assad at all?
LOL No, the army and its bases were more or less intact, they more less surrendered.SuperJail Warden wrote:
First off, the Iraqi army didn't just give up. The Iraqi insurgency was planned for months prior to the war starting. They stockpiled weapons and invited in Sunni militants in to fight. Many of ISIS' commanders are people who were part of Saddam's intelligence services.
There was a total failure to secure the army's weapons stockpiles, they were left unguarded for near a year. Sacking the entire army and leaving them with their weapons but no income was either the dumbest strategic move in history or the smartest move in the PNAC plan to cauldronise the middle east.
Nope, when you arrived AQ was not even in the country, sacking the Sunni govt and army, and replacing them with grudge-filled Shia pretty much guaranteed what followed.When we left Iraq, AQII was mostly dormant. The northern Sunni tribes were well armed comiitted to peace with the U.S. After we left, the Shia sectarian government in Baghdad started marginalizing Sunni leaders and the Sunni tribes in the north invited ISIS in. We left it in good shape politically. Their Iran backed government led to Iraq's current insurgency.
Fuck Israel
You know there are about five different groups fighting in Syria?SuperJail Warden wrote:
Syria's demographics, culture, location, and ground situation would have made regime change in Syria go a lot smoother than Iraq. A lot less people would have died. There have been more deaths in Syria than there was while we were in Iraq the whole time. And Iraq was still in one piece when we left. They failed themselves.
Fuck Israel
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AQ was involved in Iraq prior to the invasion. Saddam wasn't running training camps but there were groups and networks already in Iraq. The leader of AQII, al-Zarqawi was involved in Iraq and stayed there prior to the invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab … fghanistan
There was also AQ linked Isamist groups already there and had been there for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab … fghanistan
There was also AQ linked Isamist groups already there and had been there for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
The opposition is entirely Sunni. FSA-JaH/JaN/ISIS/Kurds are all Sunni groups.You know there are about five different groups fighting in Syria?
macbeth has gone a 180. before you were saying how iraq invasion was the worst mistakes etc.
Your link does not mention Iraq.SuperJail Warden wrote:
AQ was involved in Iraq prior to the invasion. Saddam wasn't running training camps but there were groups and networks already in Iraq. The leader of AQII, al-Zarqawi was involved in Iraq and stayed there prior to the invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab … fghanistan
None of which was a factor in the invasion of Iraq.There was also AQ linked Isamist groups already there and had been there for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-IslamThe opposition is entirely Sunni. FSA-JaH/JaN/ISIS/Kurds are all Sunni groups.You know there are about five different groups fighting in Syria?
AQ Was and is mostly Saudi, IS is largely Saudi funded and linked, when are we invading Sauron Arabia?
Fuck Israel
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It was a mistake. A big one. I still believe that. But I reject the current anti-war mythology about Iraq being a "secular country with no terrorist" and other uninformed views regarding Saddam, the invasion, and the handling of the war. And I admit that I said those at one point or another. I was wrong before and did a research, noob.Cybargs wrote:
macbeth has gone a 180. before you were saying how iraq invasion was the worst mistakes etc.
Your link does not mention Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab … round_IraqThe U.S. government contended (in 2003 in a U.N. speech) that Zarqawi received medical treatment in Baghdad, Iraq, from March until May 2002.[15] About that time, Jordanian authorities asked Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to extradite Zarqawi for his suspected role in the millennium plot of 1999 (see above)
...
But The U.S. 2006 Senate Report on Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq reported that Al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad from May until late November 2002.
I never said AQ in Iraq was a factor in the invasion. I'm, just saying that Saddam was a lot worse than people tend to think he is today. It is frustering hearing people talk about how the middle east needs dictators and go on about how great Saddam, Assad, Gandalf in Libya are/were.None of which was a factor in the invasion of Iraq.There was also AQ linked Isamist groups already there and had been there for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-IslamThe opposition is entirely Sunni. FSA-JaH/JaN/ISIS/Kurds are all Sunni groups.You know there are about five different groups fighting in Syria?
AQ Was and is mostly Saudi, IS is largely Saudi funded and linked, when are we invading Sauron Arabia?
It is not Saudi Arabia official policy to support terrorism and they have been an ally in defeating AQ. The Saudi royal family is in the thousands. Of course there will be some in there Salafist in there. Doesn't mean Saudi Arabia is an enemy of the U.S.
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Turkey wanted to carve a buffer zone out of the ISIS territory between the north Kurdish land and the FSA territory north of Aleepo.
The idea was to fill it with friendly rebels and protect it with air strikes from the SAA and ISIS. Then use the area to resettle refugees into the villages.
Good plan. The U.S. was unwilling to commit though. Didn't want to escalate the situation with Assad. That worked out well didn't it?
The idea was to fill it with friendly rebels and protect it with air strikes from the SAA and ISIS. Then use the area to resettle refugees into the villages.
Good plan. The U.S. was unwilling to commit though. Didn't want to escalate the situation with Assad. That worked out well didn't it?