SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
A raft of research—some new, some old—suggests that it’s a shame that unions were absent in Democrats’ most publicized recent conversation. Some of that research is coming from unlikely places; the International Monetary Fund, for instance, recommended reviving unions as a way for democracies to grow their economies and boost productivity.

In the U.S., where less than 9 percent of private-sector workers are organized, they could use a revival. The U.S. has one of the lowest unionization rates in the world, far behind Germany and Canada, and closer to Mexico and South Korea.

The U.S.’s low unionization rates come with consequences for its workers. It leads rich nations in low-wage jobs—more than 20 percent of jobs pay less than two-thirds of the median wage. And the U.S. ranks in the bottom third of countries in terms of its work-life balance. Americans work about 1,790 hours per year on average, but workers in most wealthier nations work less than 1,600. 11.8 percent of American adults work long hours; less than 1 percent of Dutch workers put in more than 50 hours a week.
Reviving unions could be a way to counter these trends. The IMF concluded that countries with higher rates of union coverage enjoy lower rates of inequality and lower rates of poverty. Its researchers reasoned that because globalization and technology affect just about every nation, differences in unionization rates and labor regulations are more likely to explain differences in inequality across nations.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc … ad/412831/

That's very interesting coming from the IMF.

It is strange how far away the U.S. has gotten away from the idea of unionization. The government and business leaders used to push unionism as the alternative to communism. Unions are a good way to get workers invested in the survival of the business and business owners knew that their workers wouldn't try to overthrow the company if they felt they were getting a fair deal.

Somehow along the way, our leaders started to see unions as an obstacle rather than an organizational tool. I think the 1% and upper classes have gotten way too comfortable with success and take their security for granted. Either they are delusional about their survivability or they have really been brainwashed with this super capitalist stuff.

What do you think about unions?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6707|Oxferd Ohire
I'm sure asking your boss for a raise and more time off is good enough.

I only ever hear about bad unions. Corrupt/ineffective police and teacher unions. Haven't read much about United Auto Workers since the vote at a Volkswagen plant years ago.
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6261|Washington St.
i'm pretty damn liberal but imo unions are obsolete.
they were once around because employers could treat employees like trash - and did - and there was no regulation to stop them. now we have rules/laws that say you can't do all sorts of shit they used to.
unions have tried to keep from becoming out of date by coming up with new reasons too rather than just helping employees. sure they still do some good but the unions i see no longer try to bring the employee equal to the employer but are instead above them and it's the employer who has to stretch to meet the (now greedy?) union. It'll be easy to debate against me here because all you have to show is one of the ten zillion examples of employer abuse over employee, I'm just stating what I see from unions nowadays.

also they ruin true economics
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

pirana wrote:

i'm pretty damn liberal but imo unions are obsolete.
they were once around because employers could treat employees like trash - and did - and there was no regulation to stop them. now we have rules/laws that say you can't do all sorts of shit they used to.
Well, those laws are kept in place by union political support.

Wisconsin this week.
Legislative Republicans circulated a bill last week that would significantly change the state’s worker’s compensation laws.

The proposal would diminish the amount of compensation owed to an employee who was injured due to negligence, reduce the statute of limitations for “traumatic injuries” to two years and require that employees seek treatment within the employer’s health care network.
...
The measure would also authorize the state to more aggressively investigate fraud claims and exempt employers from paying temporary disability payments if the employee is fired for good cause.
http://host.madison.com/daily-cardinal/ … 44b60.html


This coming from the same group that famously took away the right for state workers to collectively bargain. Somehow, I think there is a connection between diminishing the power of the state unions and then attacking workmen's comp.

I am not sure what you mean by "true economics." Could you elaborate?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6707|Oxferd Ohire
an economy without current republicans
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6261|Washington St.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

pirana wrote:

i'm pretty damn liberal but imo unions are obsolete.
they were once around because employers could treat employees like trash - and did - and there was no regulation to stop them. now we have rules/laws that say you can't do all sorts of shit they used to.
Well, those laws are kept in place by union political support.
I have no doubt. And if unions were for some reason immediately abolished, we may revert back and have to start all over.

I am not sure what you mean by "true economics." Could you elaborate?
Nothing really, just threw that in there...
If the ultra-free market were run, the amount employers would have to pay employees would be based on employee ability and employer demand. Unions instead tell employers how much they have to pay and make it hard to fire employees who fall below the required ability.
Don't read too much into this, I just said it for shits. You'd have to have a completely free market and you'd basically have to be a banana republic.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
(Productivity and growth) and (unions) are antonyms, not synonyms.

Please read a book and spend less time on shitty websites. I swear everything I'm reading from you originated with a philosophical stoner and has been edited to be only slightly more coheent.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
The Atlantic is a very reputable magazine. Much more respected than the reason.com trash you used to peddle.



Did you even read the OP? The IMF suggested it.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2015-10-28 14:56:06)

https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

The Atlantic is a very reputable magazine. Much more respected than the reason.com trash you used to peddle.



Did you even read the OP? The IMF suggested it.
The IMF also likes to destroy economies in the developing world. I guess it's only cool to quote them when they have a message you agree with.

Last edited by Jay (2015-10-28 15:02:42)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
Well, their argument for unions is lot better than anything you have come up with.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6261|Washington St.

Jay wrote:

I guess it's only cool to quote them when they have a message you agree with.
Welcome to the internet mankind
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6655|United States of America
I fricking hate the union that works with my company. Poorly educated people making $30/hr straight out of high school with minimal accountability doesn't make for a great pharmaceutical industry in my book.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6686

DesertFox- wrote:

I fricking hate the union that works with my company. Poorly educated people making $30/hr straight out of high school with minimal accountability doesn't make for a great pharmaceutical industry in my book.
hey they DESERVE a living wage. corporations need to make less profits man
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6602|949

Cybargs wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

I fricking hate the union that works with my company. Poorly educated people making $30/hr straight out of high school with minimal accountability doesn't make for a great pharmaceutical industry in my book.
hey they DESERVE a living wage. corporations need to make less profits man

Cybargs wrote:

somebody obviously never had a job for very long.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

I fricking hate the union that works with my company. Poorly educated people making $30/hr straight out of high school with minimal accountability doesn't make for a great pharmaceutical industry in my book.
I work with trade unions all the time. Most of the workers are highly skilled and do a good job. But, they like to play games and play dumb to generate more work. They will find any excuse to extend a job. Right now on one of my jobs they know a bulletin is coming to add shutoff valves to the radiators in a school so they are rushing to complete the original work so they can get paid twice for the same piping installation. Shit like this is constant. It's also why every modern building is ugly as fuck compared to stuff built before ww2. The cost of labor exploded to the point that every construction job expects cost overruns. It used to be that materials were expensive and labor was cheap so they would dump a lot of labor into things like mouldings and intricate plaster work. Now you get metal studs and dywall that takes only a few hours to install.

Anyway, unions do a decent job educating their members, just like the guilds of old, but as I said, efficiency, productivity increases and growth are anathema to unions. They work slow by design, nominally to protect their weakest members, but mostly because they can.

Last edited by Jay (2015-10-28 19:13:24)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

(Productivity and growth) and (unions) are antonyms, not synonyms.

Please read a book and spend less time on shitty websites. I swear everything I'm reading from you originated with a philosophical stoner and has been edited to be only slightly more coheent.
LOL OK, you've heard of Germany yes, a country where socialism, democracy and unionism work thoroughly productively?

This dichotomous thinking is often a symptom of low intelligence or mental illness.

Unions are sometimes corrupt -> All unions are bad
Govt can be inefficient -> All govt is bad
Laws are sometimes stupid -> All laws are bad
Some women are crazy -> All women are crazy

^ None of this is big or clever but is dangerous and unhealthy, and you know you'd sign up to a union in a heartbeat if you thought there were a dollar in it for you.

(Except the last bit is true.)

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2015-10-29 03:39:55)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5148|Sydney
The unions in Australia have had a lot of bad press lately, mainly due to a conservative government conducting a witch hunt and the opposition leader involved in what appears to be some less than above board activities when he was AWU national secretary. The thing many forget is that we wouldn't have overtime, sick leave, holiday pay, penalty rates, workers compensation, worker's rights, award rates, long service leave or any other workplace conditions that we all take for granted if it wasn't for unions. So yeah, there are some shit people involved but the movement as a whole has achieved a great many things we all appreciate.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
I have never been in an union. My mother is a state worker and I get an A+ healthcare insurance plan through her and for that I am grateful.

Unions especially some of the American industrial have been kinda poor at times but I still believe there has to be some counter to capital interest.

And I don't buy into this idea that they distort the free market. I don't think the free market exist in a perfect metaphysical realm and is instead a system regulated and has the rules set by individuals and organizations whether that is the IMF, European Union, American government, etc.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Unions are a necessary balance in the capitalist system - which is not a 'free market'.

Its funny that Jay owes more to the socialist side of the equation - workers rights, wealth re-distribution and workfare programs etc than his own ambition and work ethic. In other times he'd be spending his life in a mine or mill for the company coin and never have a chance to get ahead.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2015-10-31 00:31:19)

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