Australian politics thread.

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2015-02-23 18:01:56

#3826

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +659|4136

I read how he got the flag, retard. How he got the flag isn't relevant to "The guy put up an ISIS flag". Whatever mental health issues he had, he still said it was a terror attack hence it is terrorism. You don't have to be friends with terrorist to commit terrorism.

2015-02-23 18:06:33

#3827

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

Yeah I know that it was counted as a terrorist attack but I think it would be a severe mistake to consider it as one from a policy standpoint. Like you say, Monis was a mentally ill nutter with a violent history. He wasn't ISIS, he didn't have political aims, he didn't even have the right flag. All he wanted was the right flag and a chat with the PM on the Ray Hadley radio show so he could rant about how unfair it was that he was convicted for sending abusive letters to the families of deceased Australian soldiers. He wanted attention and portraying himself as a terrorist was the easiest and most effective way to do this. He claimed he was a sheikh and an ISIS terrorist. He also claimed he had a network of associates and bombs around the city. He could have claimed he was Cthulu for all the difference it makes, what he was was a lone nut with an axe to grind.

My point is that to use this as a case to build national security policy from would be idiotic. I'm certainly not defending Monis, it makes no difference what he's defined as, I just get sick of the dog whistling that's been going on around this. The easiest way for an unpopular government to secure support is to convince the public that they are the only thing standing between them and those that want to do them harm. The truth is that in the last 20 years five people have died from terror-related attacks in Australia. Compare that to the 250-odd homicides a year. Terrorism is not a major issue in Australia and yet you have the Abbott Government pushing for controversial policies and talking up threats insisting that it's all to keep everyone safe. It's utter rubbish.

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-02-23 19:35:12

#3828

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7132

SuperJail Warden wrote:
I read how he got the flag, retard. How he got the flag isn't relevant to "The guy put up an ISIS flag". Whatever mental health issues he had, he still said it was a terror attack hence it is terrorism. You don't have to be friends with terrorist to commit terrorism.

He never got the ISIS flag what are you on about. The cops wouldn't give him that shit.

Ty: you must admit that Australia does come under quite a bit of threat from terror attacks and we are targeted. Although there has been no successful terror attack on Australian soil since 9/11 we have been targeted overseas quite extensively. It's easier to hit us overseas than it is to hit us at home and our intel/police forces keep a good enough job keeping tabs on people. I mean it's not exactly easy in Australia to get explosive materials or semi-auto rifles.

Last edited by Cybargs (2015-02-23 19:38:27)

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2015-02-23 20:54:35

#3829

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

I don't really see much evidence of that. Not enough that justifies blowing it out of proportion like it seems to be. I mean Australia has thrown its lot in with the United States more proudly than somewhere like New Zealand but overseas an Australian faces as much threat from terror attacks as any other white westerner - ISIS certainly wouldn't see any distinction. The perception of being under more threat overseas may simply come from the fact that Australians are prolific travellers - there were more Australian victims of the Bali Bombings because a lot of Australians go to Bali, not because they were being targeted specifically.

At home the Aussie police and intel forces do a really good job which is as it should be but the point remains that the actual threat from terrorism is pretty damn minimal. Tony Abbott and his six flags said yesterday that ASIO had 400 people they were keeping an eye on which all sounds very scary but how many of those do you really think actually intend to conduct an attack? Out of the ones who do how many have the ability? I'm certainly not saying there's no threat but it's covered quite well by security agencies. Remember these terrorists aren't highly skilled and capable militants, they're civilians, they're more likely to harm themselves than anyone else. Look at the two idiots arrested in Sydney recently; dressing in the IS "uniform" and going to buy a machete thinking they wouldn't arouse suspicion. They're not bright. The most dangerous ones are the ones like Monis who don't necessarily follow any terrorist manifesto but are mentally ill and have a tendency towards violence. But these sorts of people don't necessarily happen to be terrorists.

My issue is when terrorism is used for political gain and it seems to be by the Abbott Government so they can try and create the illusion of safety that they can then take credit for. It's incorrect to suggest that holding metadata or messing with people's citizenship rights is going to provide any real protection, what it will do is give people the perception that the Abbott Government is doing a good job on national security because they're doing something. It's a rock-that-keeps-tigers-away situation.

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-02-23 22:37:27

#3830

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7132

Ty wrote:
I don't really see much evidence of that. Not enough that justifies blowing it out of proportion like it seems to be. I mean Australia has thrown its lot in with the United States more proudly than somewhere like New Zealand but overseas an Australian faces as much threat from terror attacks as any other white westerner - ISIS certainly wouldn't see any distinction. The perception of being under more threat overseas may simply come from the fact that Australians are prolific travellers - there were more Australian victims of the Bali Bombings because a lot of Australians go to Bali, not because they were being targeted specifically.

Not really, JI's main target (since they're indonesian) were mainly Australians during the Bali Bombings. We have threats mostly from islamic groups operating in SE Asia because of our assistance in fighting against them with Indonesia and Malaysia. JW Marriot bombings was obviously targeting Australians with a death of an Austrade officer. Australians are more at threat from terrorism overseas than we are at home, especially considering the fact that we are doing our best to make sure there is no establishment of a caliphate in the malaya peninsula.

2015-02-24 00:30:22

#3831

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:
Australia is producing a few amphibious assault ships with flat decks large enough to fit one of the 100 F35s the Australian airforce plan to buy from us.

How does the average Australian feel about that? Most people support it over there? Has there been a lot of talk about increased security spending after the terrorist attack?

Supersonic stealth fighers are extremely useful for preventing the mentally ill getting hold of shotguns, so yeah everyone is right behind it.

Australia needs a capable military, this is nothing to do with 'terrorism'.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2015-02-24 00:32:07)

Fuck Israel

2015-02-24 00:33:19

#3832

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

Cybargs wrote:
SuperJail Warden wrote:
I read how he got the flag, retard. How he got the flag isn't relevant to "The guy put up an ISIS flag". Whatever mental health issues he had, he still said it was a terror attack hence it is terrorism. You don't have to be friends with terrorist to commit terrorism.
He never got the ISIS flag what are you on about. The cops wouldn't give him that shit.

https://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/79730000/jpg/_79730565_79730564.jpg

Fuck Israel

2015-02-24 01:12:24

#3833

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7132

Dilbert_X wrote:
Cybargs wrote:
SuperJail Warden wrote:
I read how he got the flag, retard. How he got the flag isn't relevant to "The guy put up an ISIS flag". Whatever mental health issues he had, he still said it was a terror attack hence it is terrorism. You don't have to be friends with terrorist to commit terrorism.
He never got the ISIS flag what are you on about. The cops wouldn't give him that shit.

wrong flag buddy. that flag is the "black flag of jihad" which is not exactly the same as the ISIS flag.

https://i0.wp.com/mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/images/islamic_state_of_iraq.jpg

Last edited by Cybargs (2015-02-24 01:13:31)

2015-02-24 01:25:24

#3834

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

Yep, all Man Monis had was a black shahada flag. Turn it green and add a sword and you've got the flag of Saudi Arabia. And we like them, (even though they behead more people than ISIS.)

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-02-24 03:55:57

#3835

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5594|Sydney

SuperJail Warden wrote:
Australia is producing a few amphibious assault ships with flat decks large enough to fit one of the 100 F35s the Australian airforce plan to buy from us.

How does the average Australian feel about that? Most people support it over there? Has there been a lot of talk about increased security spending after the terrorist attack?

Not increased security spending, more extra screening and what not.

It's a divisive issues, because the government is cutting funding to health, welfare, pay for the military and vast numbers of community programs under the guise of "budget emergency" yet removes a carbon tax that proved to reduce emissions and raise revenue, fails to eliminate corporate tax loopholes, gives $9 billion to the reserve bank and can magically find $20 billion for submarines to be built in Japan and $14 billion for what has come to be known as inferior jets that were recommended against purchasing.

Also, due to the precarious position our PM is facing he is hitting the 'terror button' repeatedly in attempts to get a boost in the polls in the hopes of holding off the political knife being stuck in his back by one of his senior colleagues, all of whom are much more popular than he.

2015-02-24 06:14:56

#3836

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7132

Jaekus those LHD and F35 deals happened a long time ago. We buy American kit purely because of interoperability. Same reason why we decided to buy M1 Abrams and LAVs instead of Leopard 2 tanks and other APCs. Defence spending is already at a pretty low point historically which is not even 2% of GDP.

2015-03-12 02:39:39

#3837

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

Australia has offered to cover the cost of life imprisonment for Bali Nine pair Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran if Indonesia spares their lives.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop made the offer to her Indonesian counterpart last week, it emerged on Thursday.

Ms Bishop also unsuccessfully offered a prisoner swap for three Indonesian prisoners in Australia.

Hang on a minute, on what basis are my taxes being offered for this?

Fuck Israel

2015-03-12 03:33:31

#3838

DrunkFace: Germans did 911; +427|7097|Disaster Free Zone

Dilbert_X wrote:
Australia has offered to cover the cost of life imprisonment for Bali Nine pair Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran if Indonesia spares their lives.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop made the offer to her Indonesian counterpart last week, it emerged on Thursday.

Ms Bishop also unsuccessfully offered a prisoner swap for three Indonesian prisoners in Australia.
Hang on a minute, on what basis are my taxes being offered for this?

Australia doesn't agree with capital punishment.

2015-03-12 03:52:23

#3839

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

Australia doesn't agree with capital punishment for drug offences. According to polls it's almost an even split on the death penalty itself though that position changes fairly easily as you can see by looking at the Bali Nine case.

Nine years ago.

Last week.

It's an easy enough question to skew people's opinions on too.

Personally I oppose the death penalty entirely; the systematic, methodical, and detached way it is carried out gives me the heebie-jeebies. Plus it doesn't work. Joko Widodo is new to his job and wants desperately to be seen as the tough guy who sticks with his decisions - similar to how Tony Abbott started his job as Australian PM. Being tough on convicted criminals is an easy way to get political points. Look at Mike Baird in NSW, every time something happens where he needs to show strong leadership he pledges to re-examine bail laws, he's done it about three times in the past six months.

Also it doesn't work, (capital punishment I mean.) How long have they been shooting drug criminals in Indonesia? Are they still having to do it? Then it's a fucking rubbish deterrent then isn't it. The sooner they stop this stupid war on drugs and treat it like the health problem it is they'll diminish demand and curb it as a problem. Worked for Portugal and others who've gone down similar routes and I guarantee it'd work for Indonesia. Course by the time they catch on it'll be too late for Andrew and Myuran.

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-03-12 04:57:54

#3840

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

Australia doesn't agree with a lot of things, politicians don't go bribing foreign govts to change their approach.

Fuck Israel

2015-03-12 06:52:54

#3841

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5594|Sydney

Australia doesn't agree with smuggling kilos of heroin into the country, either.

I don't agree with capital punishment but these guys took a risk, in a country with well known laws for such offences, and thus are now paying the price. I'm sure if someone from overseas broke our laws and their country was all "no, we don't have your punishments for such crimes, send them back to us" people would be rioting in the streets. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I would much prefer if they were in fact returned to Australia, but in reality that isn't going to happen. It was ultimately their choice and unfortunately they'll pay the ultimate price for that choice.

The fact our government is offering to use (millions of dollars of) tax payers money to imprison them here for the crime they committed in another country is pretty fucked when they're simultaneously telling those who actually really need assistance (students, pensioners, the disabled, the abused, job seekers, etc.) that there's simply not enough money for them.

Last edited by Jaekus (2015-03-12 06:55:39)

2015-03-12 14:56:23

#3842

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

Of course there's the added complication of the AFP apparently being responsible for the Bali Nine being intercepted in Indonesia. They were exporting Heroin to Australia, not importing it into Indonesia. Surely if it was going to turn into such a big problem regarding the death penalty, (which the AFP and everyone else knew the group would face,) they would have just waited and caught them in Australia. I've heard it argued that the tip-off was effectively pay-back for Indonesia's investigation into the Bali Bombings which wouldn't surprise me.

Chan and Sukumran made their own bed but I support the Government doing what it can to spare them from a pointless death. Whether that extends to paying for their imprisonment in Bali? Probably not, that seems a little desperate to me. If that's what it's going to take for Indonesia to spare foreigners execution then Governments may as well just bribe Indonesian judges.

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-03-13 01:38:27

#3843

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

I don't agree with the death penalty, so I don't go to countries which have it and commit crimes which attract it there. You'd think that would be obvious. I doubt planning to traffic kilo quantities of heroin is either a heat of the moment thing or something you get into with no prior form.
Presumably the heroin would have had to have been trafficked into Indonesia to be trafficked out, I don't know if they were involved in that.

If quiet diplomacy had been pursued I'm confident their sentences would have been quietly commuted to life, Indonesia would have had some secret benefit from Aus, such as continued cooperation on prosecuting drug-traffickers, and everyone would have been happy.

But no, it had to be turned into a 'we're better than you' shouting match played out in the media and here we are.
That Bishop is publicly trying to bribe their way out at this stage is a reflection on her judgement more than anything.

Fuck Israel

2015-03-13 02:53:56

#3844

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7132

Ty wrote:
Of course there's the added complication of the AFP apparently being responsible for the Bali Nine being intercepted in Indonesia. They were exporting Heroin to Australia, not importing it into Indonesia. Surely if it was going to turn into such a big problem regarding the death penalty, (which the AFP and everyone else knew the group would face,) they would have just waited and caught them in Australia. I've heard it argued that the tip-off was effectively pay-back for Indonesia's investigation into the Bali Bombings which wouldn't surprise me.

Chan and Sukumran made their own bed but I support the Government doing what it can to spare them from a pointless death. Whether that extends to paying for their imprisonment in Bali? Probably not, that seems a little desperate to me. If that's what it's going to take for Indonesia to spare foreigners execution then Governments may as well just bribe Indonesian judges.

Well our government has to do shit to appease the local populace. I understand why they're doing all of this.

If you want to help countries with transnational crime, you gotta give up your own citizens at time. It's more than the bali bombings, don't forget Indonesia can be cunts and unleash thousands of asylum seekers to us if they wanted. They're playing their own game as well.

2015-03-17 05:11:29

#3845

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5594|Sydney

This is a fucking weird interview. Then again, Pyne is a fucking weird human.

It's like they were given the scripts of Clarke and Dawe to learn before it went to air.

2015-03-17 15:57:02

#3846

Ty: Mass Media Casualty; +2,398|7191|Noizyland

He's such a little weirdo.

Also while he may like being called "The Fixer", it's actual meaning isn't particularly favourable to him:

fixer

noun
1.
a person who makes arrangements for other people, especially of an illicit or devious kind.

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon

2015-03-17 15:59:56

#3847

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +659|4136

I forget you people have accents. I read your post in an American accent.

2015-03-18 02:37:21

#3848

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5594|Sydney

Ty wrote:
He's such a little weirdo.

Also while he may like being called "The Fixer", it's actual meaning isn't particularly favourable to him:

fixer

noun
1.
a person who makes arrangements for other people, especially of an illicit or devious kind.

It might not be favourable but it is quite accurate.

2015-03-18 03:09:34