And there is freedom of expression anywhere in the world. In the USSR you were free to express yourself. You just got thrown into the gulag for doing so.rdx-fx wrote:
Freedom of expression doesn't mean 'freedom from all consequence' - but it does mean that you're not going to be sent to a gulag for expressing an unpopular idea, nor is your family going to be killed for your political views.
Poll
Should flag burning be illegal?
| yes | 32% | 32% - 43 | ||||
| no | 31% | 31% - 42 | ||||
| fuck no | 36% | 36% - 49 | ||||
| Total: 134 | ||||||
were i come from its illegal, so i say YES
gunslinger would be choosing to express himself while full well Knowing the consequences thats why.Bubbalo wrote:
And so how is the flag-burner freer in America than anywhere else? The fact that Gunslinger is under arrest doesn't change the fact that the other guy got beaten up.rdx-fx wrote:
Using the existing hypothetical example;
You burn an American flag..
Gunslinger beats the crap out of you..
Police arrest Gunslinger for assault..
Which is exactly the same as in the USSR! I can diss Stalin or Lenin, but I know the consequences.
shame on youkessel! wrote:
its justa piece of fabric. if they flags were handwoven and not massed produced, maybe. as it stands though, we see the american flag plastered on everything. Most actual american flags are machinemade and pumped out by the thousand.
Food for thought:
So, it is acceptable, according to etiquette. But what a nice way to show disrespect to personal rights and freedoms afforded to you by burning a perfectly servicable symbol of such, eh?U.S. Flag Code (4 US Code 1)
Sec. 8. - Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America...
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-05-22 07:35:10)
I don't think we should have a law against it, but know full well you might get your ass kicked by a citizen who happens to respect the flag that affords him his liberties.Bubbalo wrote:
Which is exactly the same as in the USSR! I can diss Stalin or Lenin, but I know the consequences.
I think it all depends on who is burning it and why. If I see a non-american burning an American flag on an American street, there is probably going to be some sort of altercation.
If one wants to go out and legally acquire a piece of property (e.g. a flag) and then burn it in a manner consistent with local ordinances for burning, then one should, by all means, be free to do so. The fact that it is symbolic of something else is meaningless, except insofar as the person is expressing himself through that symbol.
Personally, I'd keep an eye on someone who did something like that, but that doesn't mean the person shouldn't have the right to do it within the law.
This from a soldier. I didn't go overseas and nearly get my ass shot off to come back here and find 1984. We do not want this:
Personally, I'd keep an eye on someone who did something like that, but that doesn't mean the person shouldn't have the right to do it within the law.
This from a soldier. I didn't go overseas and nearly get my ass shot off to come back here and find 1984. We do not want this:
Freedom of speech is meaningless if it isn't CONSISTENTLY free.The Clash wrote:
You have the right to free speech, as long as you aren't dumb enough to actually try it.
This is like the 50th thread I've seen on the internet about this subject .
I don't see anything wrong with it as it is a freedom of exspression witch I hold dearly but it turns my stomach. That is all .
I don't see anything wrong with it as it is a freedom of exspression witch I hold dearly but it turns my stomach. That is all .
We get it, your confused.Bubbalo wrote:
I'm just confused as to why, if America is free for everyone to say whatever they like, everyone who disagrees with you should move overseas. I'm also confused as to why people shouldn't be allowed to show their dislike by burning a flag.
I'm also confused as to how you responded to my post without reading it.
sorry for the length...
"Ragged Old Flag" by Johnny Cash
I walked through a county courthouse square
On a park bench, an old man was sittin' there.
I said, "Your old court house is kinda run down,
He said, "Naw, it'll do for our little town".
I said, "Your old flag pole is leaned a little bit,
And that's a ragged old flag you got hangin' on it".
He said, "Have a seat", and I sat down,
"Is this the first time you've been to our little town"
I said, "I think it is"
He said "I don't like to brag, but we're kinda proud of
That Ragged Old Flag
"You see, we got a little hole in that flag there,
When Washington took it across the Delaware.
and It got powder burned the night Francis Scott Key sat watching it,
writing "Say Can You See"
It got a rip in New Orleans, with Packingham & Jackson
tugging at its seams.
and It almost fell at the Alamo
beside the Texas flag,
But she waved on though.
She got cut with a sword at Chancellorsville,
And she got cut again at Shiloh Hill.
There was Robert E. Lee and Beauregard and Bragg,
And the south wind blew hard on
That Ragged Old Flag
"On Flanders Field in World War I,
She got a big hole from a Bertha Gun,
She turned blood red in World War II
She hung limp, and low, a time or two,
She was in Korea, Vietnam, She went where she was sent
by her Uncle Sam.
She waved from our ships upon the briny foam
and now they've about quit wavin' back here at home
in her own good land here She's been abused,
She's been burned, dishonored, denied an' refused,
And the government for which she stands
Has been scandalized throughout out the land.
And she's getting thread bare, and she's wearin' thin,
But she's in good shape, for the shape she's in.
Cause she's been through the fire before
and i believe she can take a whole lot more.
"So we raise her up every morning
And we bring her down slow every night,
We don't let her touch the ground,
And we fold her up right.
On second thought
I *do* like to brag
Cause I'm mighty proud of
That Ragged Old Flag"
_________________________________________________________________________________________
The flag means a lot to me. Burning it, to me, is an insult to the principles of my country. (voted yes) Find a different way of making a point!
"Ragged Old Flag" by Johnny Cash
I walked through a county courthouse square
On a park bench, an old man was sittin' there.
I said, "Your old court house is kinda run down,
He said, "Naw, it'll do for our little town".
I said, "Your old flag pole is leaned a little bit,
And that's a ragged old flag you got hangin' on it".
He said, "Have a seat", and I sat down,
"Is this the first time you've been to our little town"
I said, "I think it is"
He said "I don't like to brag, but we're kinda proud of
That Ragged Old Flag
"You see, we got a little hole in that flag there,
When Washington took it across the Delaware.
and It got powder burned the night Francis Scott Key sat watching it,
writing "Say Can You See"
It got a rip in New Orleans, with Packingham & Jackson
tugging at its seams.
and It almost fell at the Alamo
beside the Texas flag,
But she waved on though.
She got cut with a sword at Chancellorsville,
And she got cut again at Shiloh Hill.
There was Robert E. Lee and Beauregard and Bragg,
And the south wind blew hard on
That Ragged Old Flag
"On Flanders Field in World War I,
She got a big hole from a Bertha Gun,
She turned blood red in World War II
She hung limp, and low, a time or two,
She was in Korea, Vietnam, She went where she was sent
by her Uncle Sam.
She waved from our ships upon the briny foam
and now they've about quit wavin' back here at home
in her own good land here She's been abused,
She's been burned, dishonored, denied an' refused,
And the government for which she stands
Has been scandalized throughout out the land.
And she's getting thread bare, and she's wearin' thin,
But she's in good shape, for the shape she's in.
Cause she's been through the fire before
and i believe she can take a whole lot more.
"So we raise her up every morning
And we bring her down slow every night,
We don't let her touch the ground,
And we fold her up right.
On second thought
I *do* like to brag
Cause I'm mighty proud of
That Ragged Old Flag"
_________________________________________________________________________________________
The flag means a lot to me. Burning it, to me, is an insult to the principles of my country. (voted yes) Find a different way of making a point!
I'm not really sure if it should be illegal or not, but if I saw a fellow American burning it, I'd probably punch them in the face.
What about tearing up a picture or a sticker of the flag? Where does the line get drawn?
*"No one – and I repeat, no one – has ever died for a flag. See, a flag is just a piece of cloth. They may have died for freedom, which is also the freedom to burn the [BEEP]ing flag, see. That's freedom."
-Bill Hicks
*"No one – and I repeat, no one – has ever died for a flag. See, a flag is just a piece of cloth. They may have died for freedom, which is also the freedom to burn the [BEEP]ing flag, see. That's freedom."
-Bill Hicks
Last edited by JimKong (2006-05-26 18:59:31)
And I think you'll find there was no law against criticising Stalin. It's just that if you did, you knew full well you'd get your ass jailed.Erkut.hv wrote:
I don't think we should have a law against it, but know full well you might get your ass kicked by a citizen who happens to respect the flag that affords him his liberties.
But if it's a non-American, why shouldn't they burn it? In that case they aren't disrespecting those who die to defend them.Erkut.hv wrote:
I think it all depends on who is burning it and why. If I see a non-american burning an American flag on an American street, there is probably going to be some sort of altercation.
Congratulations, Horseman. You managed to take a quote mad days ago, pull it out of context, and then make a pitiful attempt at insulting me (btw, I'm not. Try harder). I'll be sure to nominate you for dumbass of the year.Horseman 77 wrote:
We get it, your confused.
naw, your just confused.Bubbalo wrote:
Congratulations, Horseman. You managed to take a quote mad days ago, pull it out of context, and then make a pitiful attempt at insulting me (btw, I'm not. Try harder). I'll be sure to nominate you for dumbass of the year.Horseman 77 wrote:
We get it, your confused.
No it should not be allowed. You have the right to protest, to speak out, but not the right to dishonor the very symbol that makes all of your freedoms possible.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
but aimed specifically @ Americans. What do yall think?
See, Gunslinger, we conducted the original discussion in an orderly manner, and in the end both understood what the other was saying? And then you come back with this? Really, that just pathetic............
Are they only prevented from burning American flags?lowing wrote:
No it should not be allowed. You have the right to protest, to speak out, but not the right to dishonor the very symbol that makes all of your freedoms possible.
Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-05-26 21:49:31)
I really don't give 2 flying fucks what you all do with your national symbols, I am an American and proud of the country of which I served. I am also proud of all of the men and women past and present who joined me in service of her. When a fellow American burns our flag, they spit in the face of all of us who have defended and those that are defending her now. It is the most hypocritical act next to protesting our dead soldiers funerals, that I can think of. It is disgusting and apalling, and so are those that do it.Bubbalo wrote:
See, Gunslinger, we conducted the original discussion in an orderly manner, and in the end both understood what the other was saying? And then you come back with this? Really, that just pathetic............Are they only prevented from burning American flags?lowing wrote:
No it should not be allowed. You have the right to protest, to speak out, but not the right to dishonor the very symbol that makes all of your freedoms possible.
So then, someone could burn, say, a French flag (in America, as an American)?
There is a difference (though slight and hard to grasp) between a government and a nation, governments are very specifically defined by actions, party lines and politics. while a nation is the creed and heritage of the people en todo. No race, no religion, no political lines, just americans, the banning of burning the flag is to protect this ideal. More of a reminder of all things bled for in the late 1700's. You may not like the party in power but if you don't like the nation you need to move. Protest Bush, protest clinton, protest Jesse "the Body" Ventura, but protesting my status as an american is akin to protesting me being white. The flag, if nothing else, should be the one thing we can all identify with, if you want to burn it then you couldn't possibly have a grasp on what it means to be an american.mikkel wrote:
You can't have true freedom until you have the freedom to criticize your own country. Why anyone would want to ban a statement as powerful as that in "the land of the free" is beyond me. I guess to most "patriotic" Americans, the freedom to leave the country supercedes all other freedoms when it comes to criticizing the government.
Goddamn where do I come up with this, that was fucking good even if I say so myself.
No, it was terrible, if you consider the fact that that would mean America's heritage is killing things.
Honestly bubbalo, how old are you, and what grade are you in???Bubbalo wrote:
No, it was terrible, if you consider the fact that that would mean America's heritage is killing things.
So, you're just going to ignore my question, fine?
Actually, I'm in 1st Grade. Tomorrow, we learn what 1+1 is! Weeeee!
Actually, I'm in 1st Grade. Tomorrow, we learn what 1+1 is! Weeeee!
Turn off your mom's computer and quit posting you cockfag, I've tried to be patient with you but goddamn 90% of your posts are empty accusations and when you do try to use a fact you misinterpret it. Come back when you've spent a few years in the job market and have had to actually work for something.Bubbalo wrote:
No, it was terrible, if you consider the fact that that would mean America's heritage is killing things.
Now that is a good question Bubbalo, and a legit one. But for me, no you shouldn't. Not even the fuckin' French.......wellllll.........wait a minute....maybeeeeee..........nehhhhh ..........no ...............not even the French.Bubbalo wrote:
So then, someone could burn, say, a French flag (in America, as an American)?