just doesn't strike me as a rich opportunity for the natives to 'integrate'.
Why do you think they pay so much? It's not a cushy job, it's hard work, but when you get paid over 100 grand off the bat its is fantastic for kick starting your adult life. You spend a year rolling in the cash with nothing to spend it on. You come home with 6 figures in your bank account. 5 more than you arrived with. And you get real world qualifications.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
mining is considered pretty awful work in europe. like, one of the worst jobs you can have. i know australia is on a natural resources boom, and there's a lot of money to be made... but the lifestyle in those mining/boom towns hardly speaks of stability and middle-class prosperity. aren't they just as rife with drinking/drugs, violence, gambling, prostitution etc.? it's the same story in the alberta oil sands, is it not?
That's a down payment to a house, your first foray into the investment world, and skills to get you employed for the rest of your life when you get home.
Make it appealing to them. Target them. It is helping THEM.
Well, yeah, I guess, but that's a pretty quick-fix solution. I just don't see that sort of cash injection as being helpful in solving the housing problems, education problems, the lack of social fabric in these communities etc etc - basically, bringing those parts of the country up to a vaguely first-world standard in what is now a very rich country by world standards.Adams_BJ wrote:
late to the party is a million times better than not turning up at all. What have they got to live for now? An early grave. Go over there for a year or two and they will be thrusted up the social ladder, and give them the foothold they need to keep climbing.Spark wrote:
Mining has indeed helped a number of Aboriginal communities and often there are big segments of Aboriginal elders who lobby hard for mining projects in their area (though by no means all of them!), but to me that whole idea has a bit of the "missed the bus" feel to it. Mining is tapering off a fair bit at the moment.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
check my last post. might answer some of your quesitons. As far as housing and education, there's only so much you can do from a government perspective. You can only give them so much for free. If they don't want to take advantage of what they are provided, its a culture issue. Giving young men and women the incentive to get out of the drain that is poverty will help the next generation. Instilling some values etc etc. You know where it's going.Spark wrote:
Well, yeah, I guess, but that's a pretty quick-fix solution. I just don't see that sort of cash injection as being helpful in solving the housing problems, education problems, the lack of social fabric in these communities etc etc - basically, bringing those parts of the country up to a vaguely first-world standard in what is now a very rich country by world standards.Adams_BJ wrote:
late to the party is a million times better than not turning up at all. What have they got to live for now? An early grave. Go over there for a year or two and they will be thrusted up the social ladder, and give them the foothold they need to keep climbing.Spark wrote:
Mining has indeed helped a number of Aboriginal communities and often there are big segments of Aboriginal elders who lobby hard for mining projects in their area (though by no means all of them!), but to me that whole idea has a bit of the "missed the bus" feel to it. Mining is tapering off a fair bit at the moment.
Last edited by Adams_BJ (2013-04-29 05:28:41)
When you start hearing stories out of WA about $250k/yr jobs with generous super and other add-ons just for driving a truck... it sort of shifts the equation a bit.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
just doesn't strike me as a rich opportunity for the natives to 'integrate'.
It's definitely still not the most appealing job, though. That's why they keep having to fly in foreign labour on special visas, because no one living in the east coast cities where the actual workers are wants to work in a mine, literally thousands of kilometres from anywhere remotely civilised. That partly why they're paid so much.
Last edited by Spark (2013-04-29 05:32:54)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Okay, great for the guy working in the mine, and what about the rest of the poor sods stuck in some public housing camp outside Alice Springs?Adams_BJ wrote:
check my last post. might answer some of your quesitonsSpark wrote:
Well, yeah, I guess, but that's a pretty quick-fix solution. I just don't see that sort of cash injection as being helpful in solving the housing problems, education problems, the lack of social fabric in these communities etc etc - basically, bringing those parts of the country up to a vaguely first-world standard in what is now a very rich country by world standards.Adams_BJ wrote:
late to the party is a million times better than not turning up at all. What have they got to live for now? An early grave. Go over there for a year or two and they will be thrusted up the social ladder, and give them the foothold they need to keep climbing.
EDIT:
Yeah, look, I'm not saying don't do it, I just question whether it's a silver bullet.As far as housing and education, there's only so much you can do from a government perspective. You can only give them so much for free. If they don't want to take advantage of what they are provided, its a culture issue. Giving young men and women the incentive to get out of the drain that is poverty will help the next generation. Instilling some values etc etc. You know where it's going.
Last edited by Spark (2013-04-29 05:29:46)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Yes, we can't expect people to work, what a frightfully awful concept.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
yeah, nothing says 'social justice' and 'sorry, welcome back into our society' like sending a bunch of people down a mine.
maybe if they're extra good you can let them stitch budget clothing for you, as well?
Fuck Israel
I'm not saying its going to solve all the issues, there is always going to be the bottom end of society. But there a disproportionate amount of aboriginals down there But this is a perfect opportunity for aboriginal people in particular to spread themselves out more evenly within the population. Maybe it's the kickstart they need, and the ones that take advantage of it will benefit for potentially generations.Spark wrote:
Okay, great for the guy working in the mine, and what about the rest of the poor sods stuck in some public housing camp outside Alice Springs?Adams_BJ wrote:
check my last post. might answer some of your quesitonsSpark wrote:
Well, yeah, I guess, but that's a pretty quick-fix solution. I just don't see that sort of cash injection as being helpful in solving the housing problems, education problems, the lack of social fabric in these communities etc etc - basically, bringing those parts of the country up to a vaguely first-world standard in what is now a very rich country by world standards.
EDIT:Yeah, look, I'm not saying don't do it, I just question whether it's a silver bullet.As far as housing and education, there's only so much you can do from a government perspective. You can only give them so much for free. If they don't want to take advantage of what they are provided, its a culture issue. Giving young men and women the incentive to get out of the drain that is poverty will help the next generation. Instilling some values etc etc. You know where it's going.
Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have tried giving handouts, tried throwing money at them, and all it seems to do is instill a sense of 'don't worry, the dole will look after us'. Maybe giving them money isn't going to work. Get them working, and not some low paying get no where job. Get them a high paying job and get them qualifications while they are there.
Last edited by Adams_BJ (2013-04-29 05:37:01)
so why don't more natives do it? 6 figure start to a life? surely every australian citizen would be queuing up to do a year down a mine? or is it possibly the fact that, really, it's itinerant work, it's unstable, and a year out in that dustbowl will likely see you spending a lot of money on drink and stuff to help the time/crushing boredom/loneliness pass.Adams_BJ wrote:
Why do you think they pay so much? It's not a cushy job, it's hard work, but when you get paid over 100 grand off the bat its is fantastic for kick starting your adult life. You spend a year rolling in the cash with nothing to spend it on. You come home with 6 figures in your bank account. 5 more than you arrived with. And you get real world qualifications.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
mining is considered pretty awful work in europe. like, one of the worst jobs you can have. i know australia is on a natural resources boom, and there's a lot of money to be made... but the lifestyle in those mining/boom towns hardly speaks of stability and middle-class prosperity. aren't they just as rife with drinking/drugs, violence, gambling, prostitution etc.? it's the same story in the alberta oil sands, is it not?
That's a down payment to a house, your first foray into the investment world, and skills to get you employed for the rest of your life when you get home.
Make it appealing to them. Target them. It is helping THEM.
still doesn't sound like 'integration' to me.
This is the exact premise why the Stolen Generations were put into action, and look what happened there.Adams_BJ wrote:
But this is a perfect opportunity for aboriginal people in particular to spread themselves out more evenly within the population.
Sending people out to do jobs based on their race will create all sorts of problems, noble intentions or not.
because they don't want to. Why would they when they are getting "looked" after. Free education, medicals and a weekly payment too. Why get out and do anything other than watch tv and have kids? After all, you get paid to have kids too!Uzique The Lesser wrote:
so why don't more natives do it? 6 figure start to a life? surely every australian citizen would be queuing up to do a year down a mine? or is it possibly the fact that, really, it's itinerant work, it's unstable, and a year out in that dustbowl will likely see you spending a lot of money on drink and stuff to help the time/crushing boredom/loneliness pass.Adams_BJ wrote:
Why do you think they pay so much? It's not a cushy job, it's hard work, but when you get paid over 100 grand off the bat its is fantastic for kick starting your adult life. You spend a year rolling in the cash with nothing to spend it on. You come home with 6 figures in your bank account. 5 more than you arrived with. And you get real world qualifications.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
mining is considered pretty awful work in europe. like, one of the worst jobs you can have. i know australia is on a natural resources boom, and there's a lot of money to be made... but the lifestyle in those mining/boom towns hardly speaks of stability and middle-class prosperity. aren't they just as rife with drinking/drugs, violence, gambling, prostitution etc.? it's the same story in the alberta oil sands, is it not?
That's a down payment to a house, your first foray into the investment world, and skills to get you employed for the rest of your life when you get home.
Make it appealing to them. Target them. It is helping THEM.
still doesn't sound like 'integration' to me.
That's why I said you need to give them the incentives to. How you do that? Who knows? It's a huge opportunity and you don't need to be a bright spark to do it.
You aren't sending anyone to do anything. If they take it they take it, if they don't they don't. Just make it appealing.Jaekus wrote:
This is the exact premise why the Stolen Generations were put into action, and look what happened there.Adams_BJ wrote:
But this is a perfect opportunity for aboriginal people in particular to spread themselves out more evenly within the population.
Sending people out to do jobs based on their race will create all sorts of problems, noble intentions or not.
No one living on the east coast really wants to either, though...Adams_BJ wrote:
because they don't want to. Why would they when they are getting "looked" after. Free education, medicals and a weekly payment too. Why get out and do anything other than watch tv and have kids? After all, you get paid to have kids too!Uzique The Lesser wrote:
so why don't more natives do it? 6 figure start to a life? surely every australian citizen would be queuing up to do a year down a mine? or is it possibly the fact that, really, it's itinerant work, it's unstable, and a year out in that dustbowl will likely see you spending a lot of money on drink and stuff to help the time/crushing boredom/loneliness pass.Adams_BJ wrote:
Why do you think they pay so much? It's not a cushy job, it's hard work, but when you get paid over 100 grand off the bat its is fantastic for kick starting your adult life. You spend a year rolling in the cash with nothing to spend it on. You come home with 6 figures in your bank account. 5 more than you arrived with. And you get real world qualifications.
That's a down payment to a house, your first foray into the investment world, and skills to get you employed for the rest of your life when you get home.
Make it appealing to them. Target them. It is helping THEM.
still doesn't sound like 'integration' to me.
That's why I said you need to give them the incentives to. How you do that? Who knows? It's a huge opportunity and you don't need to be a bright spark to do it.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
the "they get paid to sit around and have kids" type talk is tabloid trash. drop it. these people have no stake in society because you took it from them, many generations ago, not because they are lazy or indolent. it's the same with minorities/marginalized people everywhere. it would be the same as a US republican saying "we have all these unemployed black people in the bronx... why aren't they all going to alberta, to work on the oil sands?". people need a feeling of social value and 'place' in order to be motivated. you are simplifying it with a tabloid writer's zeal.Adams_BJ wrote:
because they don't want to. Why would they when they are getting "looked" after. Free education, medicals and a weekly payment too. Why get out and do anything other than watch tv and have kids? After all, you get paid to have kids too!Uzique The Lesser wrote:
so why don't more natives do it? 6 figure start to a life? surely every australian citizen would be queuing up to do a year down a mine? or is it possibly the fact that, really, it's itinerant work, it's unstable, and a year out in that dustbowl will likely see you spending a lot of money on drink and stuff to help the time/crushing boredom/loneliness pass.Adams_BJ wrote:
Why do you think they pay so much? It's not a cushy job, it's hard work, but when you get paid over 100 grand off the bat its is fantastic for kick starting your adult life. You spend a year rolling in the cash with nothing to spend it on. You come home with 6 figures in your bank account. 5 more than you arrived with. And you get real world qualifications.
That's a down payment to a house, your first foray into the investment world, and skills to get you employed for the rest of your life when you get home.
Make it appealing to them. Target them. It is helping THEM.
still doesn't sound like 'integration' to me.
That's why I said you need to give them the incentives to. How you do that? Who knows? It's a huge opportunity and you don't need to be a bright spark to do it.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-04-29 05:45:21)
It's not tabloid trash. I live in the country. I see it first hand. It's the truth.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
the "they get paid to sit around and have kids" type talk is tabloid trash. drop it. these people have no stake in society because you took it from them, many generations ago, not because they are lazy or indolent. it's the same with minorities/marginalized people everywhere. it would be the same as an US republican saying "we have all these unemployed black people in the bronx... why aren't they all going to alberta, to work on the oil sands?". people need a feeling of social value and 'place' in order to be motivated. you are simplifying it with a tabloid writer's zeal.Adams_BJ wrote:
because they don't want to. Why would they when they are getting "looked" after. Free education, medicals and a weekly payment too. Why get out and do anything other than watch tv and have kids? After all, you get paid to have kids too!Uzique The Lesser wrote:
so why don't more natives do it? 6 figure start to a life? surely every australian citizen would be queuing up to do a year down a mine? or is it possibly the fact that, really, it's itinerant work, it's unstable, and a year out in that dustbowl will likely see you spending a lot of money on drink and stuff to help the time/crushing boredom/loneliness pass.
still doesn't sound like 'integration' to me.
That's why I said you need to give them the incentives to. How you do that? Who knows? It's a huge opportunity and you don't need to be a bright spark to do it.
Sorry son, Uzique is better educated than you.
Fuck Israel
I'm not even racist. It's a real problem.
I did some Aboriginal studies a few months ago and I have to agree with Uzique. Just because you see Aboriginal people "getting paid to sit around and have kids" gives you absolutely no insight into what led them to that point, which is essentially 200 years of disadvantage, disenfranchisement and for many decades an actual government policy to wipe out the Aboriginal race forever under the guise of "integration", ie. assimilation through the Stolen Generations that prevailed right up to the 70's. Even today in 2013 Aboriginal people aren't recognised in the Australian constitution. It's a disgrace.
no, what i mean is that rhetoric is used against "chavs" here too. it's used everywhere. it's not an abo thing. 'yada yada yada benefit cheats, welfare leeches, staying at home all day and not working cause we pay them to...' that is basic invective directed at all underclass-people in pretty much every democratic state with a social-welfare budget. the point is you have to look deeper at the structural causes that disenfranchise these people, and put them in that position. rather than just pointing at the extant image and saying "look! lazy! told you so!". and i don't really see how giving people a few years' work (at best) down a mine is going to generate a stake in that society for them. they need education, and a decent promise/prospect of a proper, stable job. abos need to feel incentivized by the possibility of a real 'slice of the pie'. not a chance to make a load of money in a year down a mine. that sounds great, and all, but it evidently can't be that great or enticing... if normal australian members of society aren't rushing to do it. that should surely tell you something about how truly suitable it is to integrate a whole subaltern group into mainstream culture? "here, go do a job that hardly anyone else from society-proper wants to do... this will get you into society-proper". i'm not convinced.Adams_BJ wrote:
It's not tabloid trash. I live in the country. I see it first hand. It's the truth.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
the "they get paid to sit around and have kids" type talk is tabloid trash. drop it. these people have no stake in society because you took it from them, many generations ago, not because they are lazy or indolent. it's the same with minorities/marginalized people everywhere. it would be the same as an US republican saying "we have all these unemployed black people in the bronx... why aren't they all going to alberta, to work on the oil sands?". people need a feeling of social value and 'place' in order to be motivated. you are simplifying it with a tabloid writer's zeal.Adams_BJ wrote:
because they don't want to. Why would they when they are getting "looked" after. Free education, medicals and a weekly payment too. Why get out and do anything other than watch tv and have kids? After all, you get paid to have kids too!
That's why I said you need to give them the incentives to. How you do that? Who knows? It's a huge opportunity and you don't need to be a bright spark to do it.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-04-29 06:00:55)
They get everything in those years they need to stake their claim and get their pie. Normal people ARE flocking to the mines, in the thousands. Just not the 'well off' folk.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
no, what i mean is that rhetoric is used against "chavs" here too. it's used everywhere. it's not an abo thing. 'yada yada yada benefit cheats, welfare leeches, staying at home all day and not working cause we pay them to...' that is basic invective directed at all underclass-people in pretty much every democratic state with a social-welfare budget. the point is you have to look deeper at the structural causes that disenfranchise these people, and put them in that position. rather than just pointing at the extant image and saying "look! lazy! told you so!". and i don't really see how giving people a few years' work (at best) down a mine is going to generate a stake in that society for them. they need education, and a decent promise/prospect of a proper, stable job. abos need to feel incentivized by the possibility of a real 'slice of the pie'. not a chance to make a load of money in a year down a mine. that sounds great, and all, but it evidently can't be that great or enticing... if normal australian members of society aren't rushing to do it. that should surely tell you something about how truly suitable it is to integrate a whole subaltern group into mainstream culture? "here, go do a job that hardly anyone else from society-proper wants to do... this will get you into society-proper". i'm not convinced.Adams_BJ wrote:
It's not tabloid trash. I live in the country. I see it first hand. It's the truth.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
the "they get paid to sit around and have kids" type talk is tabloid trash. drop it. these people have no stake in society because you took it from them, many generations ago, not because they are lazy or indolent. it's the same with minorities/marginalized people everywhere. it would be the same as an US republican saying "we have all these unemployed black people in the bronx... why aren't they all going to alberta, to work on the oil sands?". people need a feeling of social value and 'place' in order to be motivated. you are simplifying it with a tabloid writer's zeal.
Not enough, though, according to the miners.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
because they ALWAYS need more. if they need more positions, they make more positions? Susainable model? Lol no, but the employees dont care about that for the year or 2 they are in
Last edited by Adams_BJ (2013-04-29 06:19:13)
I swear I was reading heaps of stuff last year about how they were having very little success getting people to move out west to the mines, even though the economic situation made it look really attractive.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
look, all i'm saying is that it doesn't really seem like a great deal to 'appease' a marginalized group. "here, you can do this dirty, awful work that most of our natives don't want to do". so that's how you stretch out the olive branch, after a century of oppression and social engineering? "hey, you bums, stop drinking and beating your wives, go work down a mine! whaddya mean, we don't want to do it? well of course we don't, stupid, we have good jobs and comfy lifestyles!".Adams_BJ wrote:
because they ALWAYS need more. if they need more positions, they make more positions? Susainable model? Lol no, but the employees dont care about that for the year or 2 they are in
if this is your idea of 'fair' and 'racial harmony', you're probably better off as a tabloid columnist than a politician.
There's spin and counter-spin.
Mining companies do very little job advertising, and lately they've been laying people off in considerable numbers, the mining services companies more so. Projects are being put on hold and companies are finding new ways to offshore labour - eg Woodside buying a floating LNG plant from abroad instead of building it onshore using local labour, Olympic Dam on hold for the foreseeable, Worley Parsons buy almost no eqpt from within Australia etc.
Mining companies don't want to employ any more people than they have to, since the business is cyclical, and they really don't want to employ Australians with all the compulsory benefits they're entitled to when they're laid off.
Its better for Gina Rinehart to say "I haven't advertised any jobs, and no-one has applied, the govt must let me import 5,000 457 visa-holders who are both cheaper and easier to fire when the job is done" than really put the effort into finding locals.
They're also very very picky about who they say they want - it is hard to find someone with 10+ years experience of heavy diesel maintenance in a mining environment who hasn't been found already, and yet relatively unskilled and inexperienced workers are quietly imported to fill the gap which was never really there.
Mining companies do very little job advertising, and lately they've been laying people off in considerable numbers, the mining services companies more so. Projects are being put on hold and companies are finding new ways to offshore labour - eg Woodside buying a floating LNG plant from abroad instead of building it onshore using local labour, Olympic Dam on hold for the foreseeable, Worley Parsons buy almost no eqpt from within Australia etc.
Mining companies don't want to employ any more people than they have to, since the business is cyclical, and they really don't want to employ Australians with all the compulsory benefits they're entitled to when they're laid off.
Its better for Gina Rinehart to say "I haven't advertised any jobs, and no-one has applied, the govt must let me import 5,000 457 visa-holders who are both cheaper and easier to fire when the job is done" than really put the effort into finding locals.
They're also very very picky about who they say they want - it is hard to find someone with 10+ years experience of heavy diesel maintenance in a mining environment who hasn't been found already, and yet relatively unskilled and inexperienced workers are quietly imported to fill the gap which was never really there.
Fuck Israel