What do you think? just go hook up with a malay chinese girl.Macbeth wrote:
Do Malaysians export their women like they do in the Philippians or are the Muslims really strict about that sort of stuff?
all it proves is that you know nothing about aesthetics. either be content with that ignorance, or at least stop trying to forecast it out into the real world of actual knowledge and actual accepted fact. you come across like a struggling buffoon.Dilbert_X wrote:
We weren't talking about the difference between factory made products and those handcrafted by starving artists using ibex horns as they recite Voltaire.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
nobody is claiming crafts is 'outside'. crafts are a celebrated part of 'inside'. just it's kind of useful to have a workable definition and distinction between an 'art' and a 'craft'. they are two different things. nobody is dismissing or rubbishing crafts. just they are evidently not 'fine arts'. a few prominent aestheticians have worked at length to explain why. i am merely saying this distinction exists. you are turning it into a "snobby art crowd" thing. it is not. you are being an idiot.
the difference between a pot made in a factory to decorate someone's living room, or hold flowers, and a pot made to be displayed in an art-gallery, for its aesthetic beauty/contemplative power, is not "subjective". the difference exists. again. please tell me more about this topic you know nothing about. i am intrigued. please keep me posted. i am taking notes. do you have an email?
You can argue as hard as you like about some contrived definition of art, the fact that some people choose to simper over old Chinese pottery made in what today would be called a mass-production sweatshop, or a paint-by-numbers fill-in of a copy of a sketch done by an intern while Da Vinci was away and ridicule anything which doesn't meet their 'aesthetic measures' proves my point really.
indonesians are fucking brutal, that's why. east timor was (still is?) a genocide.Cybargs wrote:
Yep it was pretty fucked up. A lot of it has to do with China's relations to "overseas" chinese. Kinda like how Nazi Germany kept calling people of "true aryan decent" to remain loyal to the fatherland and what not. China being a "civilization-state" does keep up a perception of lack of loyalty to the place they're living in.Macbeth wrote:
Some of the stories that came out of that area during the Asian financial crisis were pretty bad. Rape, beheadings, dismemberment, rape, etc.
I had an indonesian-chinese friend who copped a lot of shit for being chinese back home and even by indonesians in sydney.
I was looking at some election data right now. For all the huff and puff against Obama and the democrats these last few years, the '12 election showed that the GOP has some very serious issues bringing in voters that the democrats don't. Popular vote was 69,498,516 Obama and 59,948,323 McCain in '08. In 2012 the popular vote was 65,907,213 Obama and 60,931,767 Romney. For as shitty as the economy was and that big backlash against Obama, Romney only picked up a million extra voters. Obama lost 4 million. Popular vote in 2004 was 62,040,610 Bush and 59,028,444 Kerry. Voter turnout was 2.2% lower in 2012 than it was in 2004. From what it is looking like, the elections are starting to become democrats game to lose rather than republicans to win.
most of it is driven by demographics.
but even the Asians who are on average wealthier than everyone else are voting against their economic interest by 3-1. Social issues. The GOP needs to drop Jesus.
most of it is driven by demographics.
but even the Asians who are on average wealthier than everyone else are voting against their economic interest by 3-1. Social issues. The GOP needs to drop Jesus.
Last edited by Macbeth (2013-03-28 05:55:14)
All wrapped up under the whole indonesian nationalism thing, since they are a multicultural society with many different ethnicities. East Timor is still a mess, but at least they're independent now and the people don't have a fear of genocide, but lots of lawlessness.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
indonesians are fucking brutal, that's why. east timor was (still is?) a genocide.Cybargs wrote:
Yep it was pretty fucked up. A lot of it has to do with China's relations to "overseas" chinese. Kinda like how Nazi Germany kept calling people of "true aryan decent" to remain loyal to the fatherland and what not. China being a "civilization-state" does keep up a perception of lack of loyalty to the place they're living in.Macbeth wrote:
Some of the stories that came out of that area during the Asian financial crisis were pretty bad. Rape, beheadings, dismemberment, rape, etc.
I had an indonesian-chinese friend who copped a lot of shit for being chinese back home and even by indonesians in sydney.
why do you think it is somehow 'wrong' or 'illogical' that moneyed, middle-class people would vote against "their economic interest" for a party that puts social conscience before neo-liberal greed? that seems to me to be a healthily functioning democracy. you could learn a lot from social democracies in europe if you want any of the societal ills you bemoan so much to have solutions be put into practice. if the GOP dropped jesus and hoovered up more middle-class professionals, would the quality of life improve for you? then why are you diagnosing the current state as somehow 'illogical'? it only seems commonsensical to me that well-educated and middle-class people will have the social awareness to vote democrat.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 05:59:57)
I don't think it has to do with social awareness and empathy as much as boot pressure. Middle Easterners, and Indians get lumped into the entire Asian category. People from the middle east have been target #1 for the right after 9/11. Asians are starting to be on the receiving end of this
Americans really don't care about each other. They are just finding a more welcome home on the Democrat side. And yes, it would benefit me if the GOP dropped Jesus and became more middle class minded. I'm middle class. I'm getting a professional degree. I am not a hard right economic liberal. Like I said before, economics take a backseat to social issues for me. If the right gave up on the culture wars tomorrow it would be the best victory I could ever hope for.
Americans really don't care about each other. They are just finding a more welcome home on the Democrat side. And yes, it would benefit me if the GOP dropped Jesus and became more middle class minded. I'm middle class. I'm getting a professional degree. I am not a hard right economic liberal. Like I said before, economics take a backseat to social issues for me. If the right gave up on the culture wars tomorrow it would be the best victory I could ever hope for.
wait if you have a degree you're middle class? lolmerica
A professional degree, yes. We have different concepts of middle class here and over there. Thank you for your input.
What degree you getting?Macbeth wrote:
A professional degree, yes. We have different concepts of middle class here and over there. Thank you for your input.
lol everyone in america above basic manual labour is 'middle class' cybargs. it's because they're so individualist and the logic of the american dream means that they hate to consider themselves 'working class', in any way, because it implies some sort of failure or lack of seizing 'opportunity'. the middle-class in america is the most inflated and pointless term ever. if you're "middle class" as soon as you get a degree, that means 57% of americans are instantly middle-class, straight out of the gate. lol how does that make sense. assuming some americans consider themselves 'upper middle' (which is the closest they're going to get to a self-labelling upper class, in a society that shirks hierarchy at the same time it revels in status), that means that like ~25% of the nation are going to be 'working class'. that makes sense. 25% proles propping up a bourgeoisie that outweighs it 3:1. yep, nothing questionable there.
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 06:22:40)
accountants are middle class according to beth lol
Ah, the 'you don't understand the argument' argument.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
all it proves is that you know nothing about aesthetics. either be content with that ignorance, or at least stop trying to forecast it out into the real world of actual knowledge and actual accepted fact. you come across like a struggling buffoon.
I don't accept the - accepted by hipsters - definition of aesthetics, or its value or relevance, sorry.
Each to their own, but please don't try to claim some kind of authority when there is none.
Fuck Israel
You keep going on about how middle class means something different over there every time someone uses the term middle class here. Words mean different things in different places. How is it hard for you to understand that we measure and label things differently than you? You keep trying to bring it up as some sort of point to bash us over the head with but really no one cares that you guys use different terms than us.
The problem with the American definition is that middle class ranges from 25-70% of your population. The word has become meaningless.
yes dilbert, the entire philosophical-critical-artistic tradition, stretching back 2500 years, are a snooty bunch of "hipsters". you don't accept their definition because they're "hipsters". right. aristotle: fucking hipster. and why does 'authority' keep coming into it, for you? this is so puerile. who are you 'rebelling' against here? why so much anger? if political science defines 'totalitarianism' and 'democracy' in its encyclopaedia of terms - and every special term/concept needs a socially-agreed upon definition, otherwise it's all mumbo jumbo - why does it offend you so much that philosophy has analytically worked out definitions for terms like 'art' and 'craft'? these things HAVE to be clearly defined, otherwise the whole system of discourse, dialogue, and engagement breaks down. if there's no distinction between "art" and "craft", and the terms become linguistically ambiguous, what use are those terms in artistic or philosophic analysis? if they're vague? seems a little silly, doesn't it. perhaps we should analyse them and form a rational basis for their distinction. no value judgements or "snobbism" involved, just a simple demarcation between an 'art' and a 'craft'. otherwise what's the point having two terms? isn't that how language works?
but no, rage against the "hipsters" some more. you've clearly read the links i've posted explaining in simple prose what the effective difference is. all seems fairly innocent and simple, to me. but no, it's "hipsters" telling "you don't understand". i'm not saying you're incapable of understanding. i'm saying that you're just raging and venting, as per, with no inclination to actually assay the real facts and purpose of the topic. as per usual. but carry on, you're coming across as really very intelligent.
but no, rage against the "hipsters" some more. you've clearly read the links i've posted explaining in simple prose what the effective difference is. all seems fairly innocent and simple, to me. but no, it's "hipsters" telling "you don't understand". i'm not saying you're incapable of understanding. i'm saying that you're just raging and venting, as per, with no inclination to actually assay the real facts and purpose of the topic. as per usual. but carry on, you're coming across as really very intelligent.
aren't you a political science major? do you understand a single thing about the structure or theory of the middle-class? yes? then you understand why incorporating 70% of your population into an amorphous 'middle class' is a frankly absurd pretension. it's just funny. it's one of the idiosyncrasies of america: at once both averse to 'traditional' class forms, and yet obsessed with status. again: if you understood a single thing about class structure, or even the origination and point of the term 'middle-class', you'd know that, by definition, 70% of your country cannot be it.Macbeth wrote:
You keep going on about how middle class means something different over there every time someone uses the term middle class here. Words mean different things in different places. How is it hard for you to understand that we measure and label things differently than you? You keep trying to bring it up as some sort of point to bash us over the head with but really no one cares that you guys use different terms than us.
i don't think anyone really cares about the difference in definition between continents. except that, at least in most european countries, the term has some applicable meaning.
i never knew a degree in political science is considered a professional degree.
Uzique The Lesser wrote:
aren't you a political science major? do you understand a single thing about the structure or theory of the middle-class? yes? then you understand why incorporating 70% of your population into an amorphous 'middle class' is a frankly absurd pretension. it's just funny. it's one of the idiosyncrasies of america: at once both averse to 'traditional' class forms, and yet obsessed with status. again: if you understood a single thing about class structure, or even the origination and point of the term 'middle-class', you'd know that, by definition, 70% of your country cannot be it.Macbeth wrote:
You keep going on about how middle class means something different over there every time someone uses the term middle class here. Words mean different things in different places. How is it hard for you to understand that we measure and label things differently than you? You keep trying to bring it up as some sort of point to bash us over the head with but really no one cares that you guys use different terms than us.
i don't think anyone really cares about the difference in definition between continents. except that, at least in most european countries, the term has some applicable meaning.
Okay if you want to bring academics into it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_m … mic_models
So academically you are ignorant of how the U.S. is structured. Please continue bringing up British definitions and models and stuff. It is very relevant...
dude the best of your models show a MINIMUM of 45% of people being lumped into "middle class"
oh my lord
oh my lord
I said 'accepted by hipsters' not 'formulated by hipsters'.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
yes dilbert, the entire philosophical-critical-artistic tradition, stretching back 2500 years, are a snooty bunch of "hipsters". you don't accept their definition because they're "hipsters". right. aristotle: fucking hipster.
Reading comprehension FTW.
I'm sure Aristotle would have been smart enough to accept other people's opinions might too be valid.
Fuck Israel
all of those academic models are in line with my thinking, deriving from marxist class-based analyses. all of those models state quite clearly that the working-class are the majority and base of society. what we are talking about here is how most americans who are patently working-class still consider themselves 'middle', perhaps because they have a degree, or drive a car with power-steering and electric windows. there is clearly a discrepancy between the actual class system, as structured by academics and political scientists, and the way that "class" manifests itself in popular opinion/everyday life, where everyone safely considers themselves 'middle'. this is EXACTLY what we are talking about.Macbeth wrote:
Uzique The Lesser wrote:
aren't you a political science major? do you understand a single thing about the structure or theory of the middle-class? yes? then you understand why incorporating 70% of your population into an amorphous 'middle class' is a frankly absurd pretension. it's just funny. it's one of the idiosyncrasies of america: at once both averse to 'traditional' class forms, and yet obsessed with status. again: if you understood a single thing about class structure, or even the origination and point of the term 'middle-class', you'd know that, by definition, 70% of your country cannot be it.Macbeth wrote:
You keep going on about how middle class means something different over there every time someone uses the term middle class here. Words mean different things in different places. How is it hard for you to understand that we measure and label things differently than you? You keep trying to bring it up as some sort of point to bash us over the head with but really no one cares that you guys use different terms than us.
i don't think anyone really cares about the difference in definition between continents. except that, at least in most european countries, the term has some applicable meaning.
Okay if you want to bring academics into it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_m … mic_models
So academically you are ignorant of how the U.S. is structured. Please continue bringing up British definitions and models and stuff. It is very relevant...
you are a genius sometimes. please, take some more acid. are you going to graduate from your college with top honours? you're on a good track.
it's called the socratic method, and it was developed to convince uneducated interlocutors that they know nothing, and to see the right.Dilbert_X wrote:
I said 'accepted by hipsters' not 'formulated by hipsters'.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
yes dilbert, the entire philosophical-critical-artistic tradition, stretching back 2500 years, are a snooty bunch of "hipsters". you don't accept their definition because they're "hipsters". right. aristotle: fucking hipster.
Reading comprehension FTW.
I'm sure Aristotle would have been smart enough to accept other people's opinions might too be valid.
you should look it up. some of the examples read astonishingly like a conversation between you and i about the arts.
i also like how anyone who references proper philosophical thought is a 'hipster'. what? i just don't understand your stupid fucking reasoning. you are a child. so someone comes up with a cogent definition 2500, or 400, or 150 years ago - or yesterday - and that's fine. but if someone quotes that thought, and refers to it, they're a "hipster". oh right, okay. so you're cool with me distinguishing between arts and crafts if i formulate my own original definitions? or will i be a hipster because "you can't tell me what to do"
Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-28 06:42:48)
Okay for the second time: things are measured differently and mean different things in different places. Americans have a pretty wide range of what the American middle class means and symbolizes. This isn't some U.K. is better than America thing. It just means our measurement, terms, and symbols are different.
I think you're projecting again there.Uzique wrote:
it's called the socratic method, and it was developed to convince uneducated interlocutors that they know nothing
Fuck Israel