Rygar
Canucklehead
+69|6888|Nova Scotia
David Sharp was climbing solo (probably not the best of ideas, but that's not the point) and died on the way down.  He was found dead in an ice cave, which suggests someone helped him into the cave...from reading the story it sounds like he couldn't have moved himself to a cave anyway....

Personally I don't think anyone should be allowed to climb Everest, or most of the other big peaks.  Looking at the failing attempts to keep the effects of trash and human waste minimized, and then human behavior as indicated in this story, among other reasons, it would be better left to nature now.  Sure it was a big thing back in the 30's and on, but since the 80's it has a bit of Hollywood syndrome, for lack of a real explanation (this is not representative of all climbers, but most, and there are situations where some people cannot be helped anyway - see 1996 disaster - the reason I say that is because I think they knew the storm was coming, but tried to make it anyway).

Anyway, opinions?


The story:

Everest pioneer blasts climbers who left dying man
Updated Thu. May. 25 2006 10:12 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

The climbing world is facing tough criticism after dozens of mountaineers are thought to have passed by a dying climber struggling to survive as he descended from the summit of Mount Everest last week.

The British climber, 34-year-old David Sharp, had climbed the mountain solo and was on his way down from the summit.

More than 40 climbers are thought to have seen him as he lay dying, but almost all passed him by.

He was later found dead in an ice cave, apparently from oxygen deficiency.

Sir Edmund Hillary, a New Zealander and the first climber to successfully summit Everest, along with Sherpa Tenzing Norgay in 1953, slammed the climbers who left Sharp behind.

"If he'd been a Swiss or from Timbuktu or whatever that didn't matter," Hillary said in a television interview.

"He's a human being, and we would regard it as our duty to get him back to safety."

In another interview, Hillary said many climbers today are more concerned about scaling peaks than they are about human life.

"There have been a number of occasions when people have been neglected and left to die and I don't regard this as a correct philosophy,'' Hillary told the Otago Daily Times newspaper.

"I think the whole attitude toward climbing Mount Everest has become rather horrifying. The people just want to get to the top.''

Praise for Mark Inglis, a disabled climber who became the first double amputee to scale the peak on prosthetic legs quickly turned to criticism after he admitted his team stopped and tried to help Sharp, then continued on their way.

Inglis, also a New Zealander, told Television New Zealand that his party stopped during its final push for the summit to check on Sharp, who appeared to be close to death.

A slight movement of the eyeballs was the only indication that Sharp was still alive.

Inglis said they tried to give oxygen to him and sent out a distress call, then continued to the summit, leaving Sharp where they found him about 300 metres short of the 8,850-metre summit.

Inglis said there was little they could do for Sharp, and his party put the safety of its own members first.


"I walked past David but only because there were far more experienced and effective people than myself to help him,'' Inglis said.

"It was a phenomenally extreme environment; it was an incredibly cold day.''

Ben Webster, a Canadian who has guided five expeditions to Mount Everest, told CTV's Canada AM the recent situation exhibits a common phenomenon in the high peaks.

"My first reaction is that it isn't surprising. This happens every year, it just happened to be this incident that has caught the attention of people. But this happens pretty consistently on high mountains, and in particular Everest," Webster said.

In fact, during a Discovery Channel expedition that Webster led in 2004, his team encountered a group of struggling climbers and was able to help save four people.

Prior to the climb, he said, the team had a discussion about what they would do if they encountered climbers who needed their help. His team decided they would help.

"In the case of 2004, that's what we did. We actually provided oxygen and helped people down."

But, Webster said, it's easy to be an "armchair quarterback," and pass judgement.

The question to ask, he said, is whether the people who passed Sharp climbed by him as they made their way to the summit, or on the way down. If they were on the way down, they could have decided, within reason, that they didn't have the resources to help Sharp down the mountain.

If they were on their way up, the decision to pass him by is less understandable.

"If you're on your way to the summit, that begs the question of whether you're putting the price of someone's life tied to a piece of rock and ice, which is the summit of Everest. That's the more troubling question."

In the case of the Inglis team, the climbers were on their way to the summit.

Death is no stranger to Everest. In the last 53 years 1,500 climbers have reached the summit, but about 190 have died in the attempt.
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7013|Atlanta, GA USA
Yeah, I heard about that.  Pretty fucked up that people would go by him without trying to help...
Kung Jew
That one mod
+331|6987|Houston, TX
That's F'ed up.  The price of a life is outwieghed by the need for superficial personal goal completetion?!?!?  What regard for human life does this portray?  Humanity is a team, not just the cliches that are formed within.  This blatent disregard for the life of a fellow human makes me sick.  I'll never attempt to scale Everest, but if in the same ascent as the people mentioned, and presented with the similar situation, I'd abandon the quest without thought.  I wouldn't sleep at night thinking about the last thoughts/sights of someone else like that.

Good find on the article Rygar.  Any fellow bf2s members disagree with me?  I'd love to hear the reasoning.

KJ
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7014|PNW

If people are stupid, they will die regardless of restrictions and regulations.
Kung Jew
That one mod
+331|6987|Houston, TX
"If people are stupid, they will die regardless of restrictions and regulations."

I don't know that it is a matter of being stupid, because I agree that the stupid find a way to end themselves quicker due to design.

The issue is the disregard to rendering aid to those more in need than you.  Very few instances that I can think of can be regarded as reasons for bypassing people in need of help.  Extreme greater good, or the risk of hurting more people in the process are instances.  (ie  terminal isolation for non-curable virus comes to mind)

Whaddya think?

KJ
Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|6921|Broadlands, VA
First off - I mean no disrespect for those who lost their lives climbing that or any other mountain.

But I gotta ask - why?  It's nothing new.  Also, even in a successful climb you run the risk of at least loosing finger, toes or something else.  And ther summit is no longer a thing of beauty - it's littered with flags, equipment & discarded oxygen bottles.

But, that's just me.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7014|PNW

I posted more in reply to "personally I don't think anyone should be allowed to climb Everest" than to rest of the OP. It's a risk you take when you climb mountains like Everest. A helicopter's not always going to be able to fish you out of trouble, but I agree that it is selfish and irresponsible for anyone to leave a wounded/exhausted climber to their own devices.
Rygar
Canucklehead
+69|6888|Nova Scotia
Good posts by KJ and Kaosdad - it would be bad enough to ignore someone who's dying because you want so badly to make the summit, but the fact that it's been done hundreds of times before you (newsflash, no one outside of your family or office cares if you make the summit or not) and still ignore them is disturbing.

Reminds me of the picture of the child trying to make it to the food station with the vulture standing in the background (it's around here somewhere, taken somewhere in Africa I believe).  The photographer didn't help and later killed himself.

"Sorry man, I'd love to give you some oxygen, but I'm almost there!"

There are other factors to take into consideration, but most of them just lead to other questions...i.e. Someone finds this guy dying but honestly has no sweet clue how to help or what to do...this leads to why the hell this person is even on the mountain....etc.

Anyway, I thought I'd post it, makes you wonder.
shaga_delik
Member
+8|6908|Brighton, UK
It's kinda similar to deep "technical" scuba diving.  I personally stay shallow and look at the fish but there are some who get kicks out of deep diving.  The rule when you're down that deep or up that high is unfortunetely that if there is a problem... it's your problem.  Not thru any lack of human morales.  Just the fact that's it's not always possible to help.

The guy who died would have understood the risks he was taking.  The mountaineers who walked passed a dying man knew that they could do little or nothing for him.  Correct me if I'm wrong but Everest is too high for helicopters?  So the only way would be to carry him.  For days.  Down the highest mountain on the planet.
Rygar
Canucklehead
+69|6888|Nova Scotia

shaga_delik wrote:

The guy who died would have understood the risks he was taking.  The mountaineers who walked passed a dying man knew that they could do little or nothing for him.  Correct me if I'm wrong but Everest is too high for helicopters?  So the only way would be to carry him.  For days.  Down the highest mountain on the planet.
You're right about the helicopters, and about knowing the risks, and about being able to do little for him, but not nothing.
There are people who have been in near death situations similar on the mountain who HAVE been helped down and lived (mind you they've lost limbs, digits, etc).  I probably should have mentioned those originally...

Last edited by Rygar (2006-05-25 08:34:58)

Burning_Monkey
Moving Target
+108|7080

Kaosdad008 wrote:

But I gotta ask - why?  It's nothing new.  Also, even in a successful climb you run the risk of at least loosing finger, toes or something else.  And ther summit is no longer a thing of beauty - it's littered with flags, equipment & discarded oxygen bottles.
Yeah, the place is a garbage dump now.  People just dump what ever they have were ever they used it becasue they can and don't want to hump that shit back down the mountian.  How can you expect a rich ass puke that paid for the 'experiance of climbing to the summit' to care about anything but himself when the way he got the money to go was screwing every one around him?  These people buy trips to the summit of Everest and they raise all holy hell if they don't get there.  There was quite a few shows about the 1996 disaster and more than a few people say that some of the reason the team continued to push onto the summit instead of turning around is constant pressure on the guild that 'I paid to get to the summit, and you God damn better get me there.'

Rygar wrote:

Reminds me of the picture of the child trying to make it to the food station with the vulture standing in the background (it's around here somewhere, taken somewhere in Africa I believe).  The photographer didn't help and later killed himself.
That is a little different.  That kid was dead no matter what.  He just happened to photo her before she died.  And the photographer eventually did kill himself later over the guilt of not trying hard enough to save her.  But that guilt was not helped by remarks about him not trying at all.


I think mountian climbing and sky diving for recreational purposes to be one of the stupidest and most self centered things that people do.  I have more respect for the diabetic fat ass video gamers that die from insulin shock because they can't quit drinking Mountian Dew while they come up with new hacks for CS:S.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7010
Everybody knows the risks when you are climbing. You accept these before you go. There is also a code amongst climbers; if you can’t go on, you make your own way down. If someone was to help, you would put their life at risk. The climber who died left too late in the day and as tragic as it is, it cost him his life.
BVC
Member
+325|6938
Theres been a LOT of talk about this here recently, perhaps more than anywhere else.  Mt Everest became part of NZ's national identity the day news broke of Sir Ed making it, his face is on our $5 note (one of which is in my wallet right beside my mouse) and that a NZer was the first makes us damned proud to be part of this country.

When Mark Inglis, another NZer, became the first double-amputee to make it up, the same feelings of pride felt around the time when Sir Ed made it started to come back; The first person to make it was a kiwi, and another kiwi had just become the first to do it without legs!

We're a small, and fiercly proud nation, so you can imagine the sesnse of shame that was felt by many (myself included) when we found out that Mark Inglis' party didn't try to rescue Richard Sharp.  Because of his acheivement, Mark Inglis has borne the brunt of public feeling in the issue.  Though there were many people in his party, and despite that his party was the only one that tried to render assistance to Richard Sharp, many seem to feel that its his fault; that he doesn't have legs doesn't seem to matter, he held the holy grail of mountaineering, but in doing so turned his back on someone who was dying.

I myself am trying not to form an opinion on Mark Inglis, I understand that leaving Richard Sharp was a bad thing, but I also understand that he was as good as dead.  Nevertheless, leaving someone to die on a mountain like that, even if you're sure they're going to die, its just not the New Zealand way.

To Richard Sharp's friends and family, for all the worth of words on a gaming forum you'll never see, on behalf of all New Zealanders, I'm sorry Richard was left to die.
JahManRed
wank
+646|6870|IRELAND

Kaosdad008 wrote:

First off - I mean no disrespect for those who lost their lives climbing that or any other mountain.

But I gotta ask - why?  It's nothing new.  Also, even in a successful climb you run the risk of at least loosing finger, toes or something else.  And ther summit is no longer a thing of beauty - it's littered with flags, equipment & discarded oxygen bottles.

But, that's just me.
I agree. The "because its there" crap doesn't wash.
Now a days you can pay £25 000 and do Everest like a holiday. Sherpas carry all your equipment and have the camps already set up all warm and cosey. So that ppl can boast that they climbed the tallest mountain in the world, aligning themselves with ppl who did it 40 years ago without any help. Bullshit. And now its manifested into actually leaving someone to die to be able to rant at dinner parties. The Sherpas are the hero's. Some of these guys climb Everest 80 times in one year, carrying some white westerners heated underpants & ipod..........now thats amazing.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6803
It's very expensive to attempt to climb Everest, and people shouldn't have to throw away all that money because someone else couldn't do it.  People know the risks when they go on something like that.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS
Well, I just head a news update a few minutes ago. It went something like this:

'... a climber thought dead has been found alive on Mt Everest' (remember this is an UPDATE - and I can't really remember the wording)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|7007|Dallas
Mistake #1. Climbing alone.

Mistake #2. Not bringing enough oxygen.

Mistake #3. Staying up there to long.

Mistake #4. Going there in the first place so you can tell your buddies that you climbed the tallest rock in the world.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6803
For once, me and Cougar agree...................I think I just heard the universe collapse in on itself....................
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6958

Cougar wrote:

Mistake #1. Climbing alone.

Mistake #2. Not bringing enough oxygen.

Mistake #3. Staying up there to long.

Mistake #4. Going there in the first place so you can tell your buddies that you climbed the tallest rock in the world.
yes. well as a ninja, i wouldnt even want to climb a mountain... whats the point...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
eusgen
Nugget
+402|7034|Jupiter

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If people are stupid, they will die regardless of restrictions and regulations.
Owned.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7017|Noizyland

Hillary has been known for his opposition to the commercialisation of climbing Mount Everest. I don't think he should have critisised Ingills. Being a New Zealander and being critisised by Hillary is like being critisised by God, I don't think even he realises the impact on anything he says.

The thing is, if you want to climb Everest, and you have the money to do so as part of an expedition, you must realise the risk that you could die. While considering that, you also need to consider that it is your primiary aim to keep yourself alive. you cannot rely on others to keep you alive as they're too busy making sure they live through it.

Furthermore, Ingills, who was slightly frostbitten, and a fucken double-amputee remember, could not have helped Sharp. He did contact his team leaders regarding Mr Sharp, but they suggested he be left as he was only showing the smallest amount of movement - some twitching of his eyelids.

Bad occurences on Everest have always lead to a witch hunt for someone to blame. Jon Krakauer, who was apart of the 1996 Everest disaster which claimed eight lives, was critisised over the death of one member, Andy Harris, although Krakauer and Harris were both incredibly disorientated and in a white out at the time. Also regarding another member of the expedition, Beck Weathers, who was left to die on the mountain twice, Krakauer was blamed again for not helping him as apparently Weathers was lying just a few metres outside Krakauer's tent for a while, (Weathers now holds the record for 'most frostbitten man.')

They find someone to blame, but never think that Everest is a fucking dangerous mountain to climb and people die on there. After 190 deaths people still seem to think that it was human error that resulted in someone's death. Krakauer couldn't have helped Either Weathers or Harris any more than he did, nor could have Ingills helped Sharp.

People need to acccept that if someone is climbing Everest they could very well die. It is not a fault of their own, or the fault of anyone with them. It is simply part of nature, tht if you go into an environment which is incredibly hostile, you may die. Simple as that.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
MorbidFetus
Member
+76|6793|Ohio
I have no regards for people who swim in the ocean either. Get bit by a shark, that's your own damn fault.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6803
Sarcasm, I presume?  The difference is the chance of being attacked by a shark is reasonably low.  The chance of dieing if the slightest thing goes wrong on Mount Everest is *huge*.
PspRpg-7
-
+961|6940

Not to sound cold, but it's his own damn fault for climbing the mountain alone.
MorbidFetus
Member
+76|6793|Ohio

Bubbalo wrote:

Sarcasm, I presume?  The difference is the chance of being attacked by a shark is reasonably low.  The chance of dieing if the slightest thing goes wrong on Mount Everest is *huge*.
No. If you don't wanna die on a mountain, don't climb one.

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