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2013-01-06 16:59:58
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5417|Sydney
2 cents from me. I think unions play an important role for representing workers' interests where some capital interests in the past has seen lining the pockets of a few at the exploitation of many as acceptable practice. That said, union thuggery is just another form of a power trip and has lost sight of the intended purpose.

I'm not a member of a union but because of them in the past four years my pay has increased by 33%, as they had been lobbying for the pay margin between the government and private sector to narrow (I work for a NGO national mental health service that has been around for 37 years). From what has been published in the media here most of the union thug tactics seem to be present in the building industry.
2013-01-07 00:27:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Unions play an important role. Without unions we'd still have people paid a pittance - in coin which can only be used in the company store - no health and safety rules, no hour limits etc etc.

On the other hand unions are seats of power which attract thugs, gangsters and people with a political axe to grind such as mad communists who want to destroy the company which employs them because they hate capitalism (and in Australia people who don't want to do a days work but do want a career in politics...)

I was in a union at Ford, it was sold as the least bad option - if as an engineer I got into trouble, for example a harassment claim for asking someone to do their job properly, then the white collar rep would sort it out with the blue collar rep, the blue collar employee would take a few weeks 'sick' and everyone would be happy. If I weren't in the union Ford wouldn't back me and I'd be fucked.

I did go on strike for a day, when Ford robbed the pension fund, the union was utter shit, after 20 years of 10,000 people paying in they wouldn't put up GBP1,000 for a roadside poster.

As for Depardieu, he's a smelly weasel. The French film industry is pretty much a closed shop - a very small clique of actors get all the roles, hardly anyone else gets a look-in - an average actor like Depardieu wouldn't get 196 roles any other way.
That and the French film is heavily subsidised and protected by the govt, for example in 1989 "France currently requires that
no more than 40%of films shown in France are of non-European origin." which basically means cinemas must show at least 60% French films, and various other requirements http://www1.american.edu/ted/frenchtv.htm

So Depardieu has had a lifetime of working in a heavily protected and subsidised closed shop thanks to Mother France - I'd say if anyone in France owes his country its him.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-01-07 00:28:37)

Fuck Israel
2013-01-07 01:45:46
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida
wikipedia =

"Under the German model, unions are organized at the industry level and co-exist with works councils at both the plant and company levels. These unions negotiate wage determination with employers' associations. The strength of this setup is the cooperation among unions and management councils. This is unique among Western countries, which have been marked by either substantial weakening of union powers (such as in the United States and United Kingdom) over the last twenty years, or consistent union conflict (such as in France and Italy, where unions have remained strong)."
Being capitalist and pro-union are not mutually exclusive.  They also have no minimum wage in Germany which allows them to implement those apprenticeship programs. 

I'm not quite familiar with how they are faring in regards to the eurozone crisis.  Aren't they still doing the best out of all of Europe?
2013-01-07 01:48:25
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX
Unions have some advantages, the simplicity of central and one-off bargaining for one.

Proactive and constructive unions are a positive benefit.
Fuck Israel
2013-01-07 04:43:12
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6761|...

I think it depends on the union. IMO unions that protect what is commodity, non-skilled labor basically attempt to hold an industry hostage.
2013-01-07 04:45:51
13rin
Member
+977|6718
But it makes it so their workers make shitload of money?!  I totally want to be a longshoreman when I grow up.   104k starting, 15k bonus every year. 

Nah I'm with ya jsnipy
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2013-01-07 06:40:42
PrivateVendetta
I DEMAND XMAS THEME
+704|6430|Roma

Macbeth wrote:

Unions can be a pain in the ass a lot of times. But I think there should be at least some counter balance to capital interest.
This.
My company isn't unionised, but it is being worked on as we speak because of this constant erosion of pay, working environment and increase in workload.
Every new set of workers is offered a different contract at worse conditions, and existing workers reaching the end of the same contract (which pays more for more experience) are not renewed to make way for cheaper less experienced employees.
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2013-01-07 14:48:08
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6954|US
Here'e my outsider take.  If a union is needed, employees should be able to unionize.  If the need is there, people will voluntarily join.  Stuff like forcing everyone to pay union dues seems to indicate that the union has political power, but isn't serving its customers (employees).
2013-01-07 14:54:12
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
2013-01-08 00:10:27
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
Too bad, unions need to make a case for you to join, if everyone is forced to join they don't then have to do anything for their members.
Fuck Israel
2013-01-08 05:45:18
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6920|Disaster Free Zone

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
lol wat...
2013-01-08 05:52:11
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6955

DrunkFace wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
lol wat...
Don't worry he's a philosophy major, he understands everything.
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2013-01-08 09:13:42
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

DrunkFace wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
lol wat...
Do you have something you want to contribute or does 'lol wat' expire your scope of knowledge on the subject?
2013-01-08 09:22:01
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

Cybargs wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
lol wat...
Don't worry he's a philosophy major, he understands everything.




If workers in a factory unionize then they must force any new employees into the union or the power of the union is undermined. If only half the workers are union and decide to stage a strike while the other half are non-union and decide to keep working then the effect of the strike would be minimal since the other non-union workers will pick up the slack. This may very well result in all the union members getting fired since the factory wasn't completely shut down or production wasn't disrupted.  There is also the free rider problem. People will be happy to get the benefits that the union fought for without having to pay union dues or take part in union activity. That is why right to work weakens unions.

Last edited by Macbeth (2013-01-08 09:29:22)

2013-01-08 09:25:13
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
Too bad, unions need to make a case for you to join, if everyone is forced to join they don't then have to do anything for their members.
This is a very valid criticism of unions. Wildcat strikes are very difficult to organize.
2013-01-08 10:49:05
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6955

Macbeth wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:


lol wat...
Don't worry he's a philosophy major, he understands everything.




If workers in a factory unionize then they must force any new employees into the union or the power of the union is undermined. If only half the workers are union and decide to stage a strike while the other half are non-union and decide to keep working then the effect of the strike would be minimal since the other non-union workers will pick up the slack. This may very well result in all the union members getting fired since the factory wasn't completely shut down or production wasn't disrupted.  There is also the free rider problem. People will be happy to get the benefits that the union fought for without having to pay union dues or take part in union activity. That is why right to work weakens unions.
half of the workers on strike won't put a dent in production? looks like you know how to run a factory.
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2013-01-08 10:59:06
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4493
Yes, I made this passport application and I'm pleased to say that it was accepted. I adore your country, Russia - its men, its history, its writers. I love to make films there, and love to tour with your actors, such as Vladimir Mashkov. I adore your culture, your intelligence.



My father was a communist, he listened to Radio Moscow! This is also my culture. In Russia you can live well. Not so much in Moscow, which is too large a megapolis for me. I prefer the countryside and I know some marvellous places in Russia.



One place I love, for example, is the place where the Gosfilmofond (Russian Film Archives), directed by my friend Nikolai Borodachev, is located. On the edge of the birch forests I feel a sense of well-being. And I will be learning Russian.



I have also spoken to my President, François Hollande. I told him all of this. He knows that I like your President, Vladimir Putin very much, and that the feeling is reciprocal. And I told him that Russia was a great democracy and was not a country where the prime minister treated a citizen shabbily.



I really like the press, but it's also really boring, as there is too often a uniformity of thought. However, out of respect for your president and for your great country, I have nothing more to add.



If I have anything more to say about Russia, it would be this piece of prose that has come to mind:



It is only in a country as big as this that one is never alone,

As each tree, each landscape brings hope to us,

There is no pettiness in Russia, there are only great feelings,

And behind these feelings a great sense of decency.



In your immensity I never feel alone,
depardieu's letter. that's the sound of a fat french alcoholic crawling on his belly to avoid taxes.

Last edited by aynrandroolz (2013-01-08 10:59:13)

2013-01-08 13:09:27
Karbin
Member
+42|6533

Cybargs wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Don't worry he's a philosophy major, he understands everything.




If workers in a factory unionize then they must force any new employees into the union or the power of the union is undermined. If only half the workers are union and decide to stage a strike while the other half are non-union and decide to keep working then the effect of the strike would be minimal since the other non-union workers will pick up the slack. This may very well result in all the union members getting fired since the factory wasn't completely shut down or production wasn't disrupted.  There is also the free rider problem. People will be happy to get the benefits that the union fought for without having to pay union dues or take part in union activity. That is why right to work weakens unions.
half of the workers on strike won't put a dent in production? looks like you know how to run a factory.
Quite obviously...you DON'T know how to run a plant.
I've spent up to four hours doing nothing with the line down only to run three units off the line just before the end of shift.
IF you can get 1/3 the units off the end of the line with half the workers....they WILL do it. 
NUMBERS.... NUMBERS....NUMBERS.... that's ALL that counts.

Try reading "A Savage Factory" by Rob Dewar
Not much has changed from his time to now.

Last edited by Karbin (2013-01-08 13:15:19)

2013-01-08 13:39:03
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6955

Karbin wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Macbeth wrote:






If workers in a factory unionize then they must force any new employees into the union or the power of the union is undermined. If only half the workers are union and decide to stage a strike while the other half are non-union and decide to keep working then the effect of the strike would be minimal since the other non-union workers will pick up the slack. This may very well result in all the union members getting fired since the factory wasn't completely shut down or production wasn't disrupted.  There is also the free rider problem. People will be happy to get the benefits that the union fought for without having to pay union dues or take part in union activity. That is why right to work weakens unions.
half of the workers on strike won't put a dent in production? looks like you know how to run a factory.
Quite obviously...you DON'T know how to run a plant.
I've spent up to four hours doing nothing with the line down only to run three units off the line just before the end of shift.
IF you can get 1/3 the units off the end of the line with half the workers....they WILL do it. 
NUMBERS.... NUMBERS....NUMBERS.... that's ALL that counts.

Try reading "A Savage Factory" by Rob Dewar
Not much has changed from his time to now.
It's called minimizing losses. If they can profit with 1/3 of the products with only half of the employees, they would've fired half the people already.
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2013-01-08 14:20:10
Karbin
Member
+42|6533

Cybargs wrote:

Karbin wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


half of the workers on strike won't put a dent in production? looks like you know how to run a factory.
Quite obviously...you DON'T know how to run a plant.
I've spent up to four hours doing nothing with the line down only to run three units off the line just before the end of shift.
IF you can get 1/3 the units off the end of the line with half the workers....they WILL do it. 
NUMBERS.... NUMBERS....NUMBERS.... that's ALL that counts.

Try reading "A Savage Factory" by Rob Dewar
Not much has changed from his time to now.
It's called minimizing losses. If they can profit with 1/3 of the products with only half of the employees, they would've fired half the people already.
And you "Minimize the loss" with 1/3 of your workforce being non-union and working through a strike.... why would you even talk with the union?
As an "Open Shop" you could then hire non-union replacment workers to cover those on strike...at any wage you want to pay.

A February 2011 study by the Economic Policy Institute found that:
Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower.
Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states. Thats 2 million fewer workers nationally covered.
The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.
2013-01-08 14:41:53
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6954|US

Karbin wrote:

And you "Minimize the loss" with 1/3 of your workforce being non-union and working through a strike.... why would you even talk with the union?
You do understand that "minimize the loss" still involves loss, right?  Any company with a reasonably sound business model would benefit from a full workforce more than the marginal increase in employee costs.

Karbin wrote:

As an "Open Shop" you could then hire non-union replacment workers to cover those on strike...at any wage you want to pay.
If there is a big enough supply of labor and the new workers don't feel like they are getting abused, sure.  If you just abuse the new workers, chances are they will go join the union and demand better treatment.
Funny how this supply and demand thing works, eh?
2013-01-08 14:58:56
Karbin
Member
+42|6533
OK...... Just how many of you have worked in a auto plant, a auto supplier plant or just a plant with a union? and what were the products made?

All I can say...from the inside of a auto plant is you have NO idea.....really.
Try reading "A Savage Factory" by Rob Dewar then get back to me with unions are not needed. By the way, Dewar was not a union member.

Back to the OP.... No I do not support the actions made in it. In fact, the union I am a member of, supports actions like that of the Quakers, not the twits with the blow torch.

Your "supply and demand" point is not even close..... once the union is out it's well known any attempt to re-organise will get the place moved to another RTW area.

Last edited by Karbin (2013-01-08 15:02:04)

2013-01-08 15:15:07
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4493
i didn't read your savage factory book but i read 'the jungle' once and it was gud.
2013-01-10 08:22:40
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6920|Disaster Free Zone

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You have to force everyone into a union or you will end up with people taking benefits they didn't work to get. AKA free riders. You also will need everyone on board if you are going to launch a strike or walkout. You can't have half a business walk out and expect to get the employers attention.
lol wat...
Do you have something you want to contribute or does 'lol wat' expire your scope of knowledge on the subject?
pretty much...

The entire concept of Forcing someone to join a union in order to be hired is so absurd that it renders me speechless. Unions are great, and can give many benefits to those who CHOOSE to join them, but forced membership is just extortion.
2013-01-10 17:59:53
BVC
Member
+325|6934
Unions are a necessary safeguard against exploitation or workers.

When wage negotiations come around, a union negotiating collective agreements can actually be of benefit to a large employer, as union/collective negotiation can save HR the time/hassle of having to sit down and listen to every employee arguing for a pay rise.  Also, collective bargaining reduces an employees potential exposure to discrimination lawsuits.

Unions can also turn bad, to the point where their demands & actions seriously harm a business or even cause it to go under.  Forced membership isn't a good thing, but then neither are freeloaders.  One compromise is to enforce a reduced fee upon non-members who would otherwise stand to benefit from union-driven wage negotiations.

Last edited by BVC (2013-01-10 18:00:53)

 

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