KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6849|949

but still nothing about the majority of fortune 100 CEOs having humanities degrees.  I can't find anything that shows this is true.

I'm a big fan of humanities degrees and see little value in going to university to get any type of 'business' degree.  But I'm wondering where you got your (what seems to be) erroneous information.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

but still nothing about the majority of fortune 100 CEOs having humanities degrees.  I can't find anything that shows this is true.

I'm a big fan of humanities degrees and see little value in going to university to get any type of 'business' degree.  But I'm wondering where you got your (what seems to be) erroneous information.
Yeah, everything I've read points to engineering and Business Administration as the top degrees.  Ivy only make up just over 10%.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

4 minutes, 20 seconds ago

aynrandroolz (44)

DAST Chat

business administration, rofl. what a degree. im sure the early americans established world-class unis for 'business administration'. seats of learning and erudition! nah, factories for asians.




Uzique, name 10 of these fortune 100 CEO's with humanities degrees.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

4 minutes, 20 seconds ago

aynrandroolz (44)

DAST Chat

business administration, rofl. what a degree. im sure the early americans established world-class unis for 'business administration'. seats of learning and erudition! nah, factories for asians.




Uzique, name 10 of these fortune 100 CEO's with humanities degrees.
The funny thing is, if it was self-evident, he wouldn't feel the need to constantly defend the humanities.

You can succeed with nearly any degree, but it's telling that so many people that hold humanities degrees turn to government jobs in order to find a decent wage.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
I miss this blog
#47 Arts Degrees

When white people go away to college, they tend to study what are knowns as the Arts.  This includes actual Art, English, History, Classics, and Philosophy.  These can of course be broken down further into Film, Womyn’s Studies (yes the spelling is correct), Communications, Gender Studies, and so forth.  It is important to note that a high percentage of white people also get degrees in Political Science, which is pretty much like arts, and only seems to have the word “science” in it to make white people feel better about themselves.

These degrees enable white people to spend four yeas of their lives reading books, writing papers and feeling great about themselves.  It is a known fact that Arts students firmly believe that they are doing you/society a favor by not getting a job and reading Proust.  They use this to protest for reduced tuition, more money for the arts, and special reduced student rates on things like bus passes.

But what about the white people who study Science, Engineering or Business?  Unless they become doctors, they essentially lose white person status (and can only be regained by working at a non-profit).

So why would white people spend all that time studying and working to get into college if they are just going to read books that they might have read in their free time?  Because white people have it made.  They can take that degree and easily parlay it into a non profit job, an art gallery job, or work in publishing. If the pay is low, no problem, their parents will happily help out with rent until they magically start making six figures or non-magically turn 40.

White people can also take that degree and go to graduate school (future post) and eventually become a professor or adjunct professor where they will still require parental support.

If they are REALLY ambitious and need to make money, they can take that degree and go to Law School.

But the real reason white people need these degrees is so that they can sound smart at parties.  Of course it trickles down to making connections, getting hired, knowing rich people, and so forth.  But ultimately it all begins by saying “reading Henry James was the most rewarding part of undergrad.”

Using this to your advantage can be very difficult as attempts to talk about the books they skimmed while hungover can expose you.  It is best to say that you were a first generation college student and your parents demanded that you study math, chemistry, economics or computer science.  You had to read Joyce on your own.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02 … s-degrees/
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6217|Vortex Ring State

Jay wrote:

I miss this blog
#47 Arts Degrees

When white people go away to college, they tend to study what are knowns as the Arts.  This includes actual Art, English, History, Classics, and Philosophy.  These can of course be broken down further into Film, Womyn’s Studies (yes the spelling is correct), Communications, Gender Studies, and so forth.  It is important to note that a high percentage of white people also get degrees in Political Science, which is pretty much like arts, and only seems to have the word “science” in it to make white people feel better about themselves.

These degrees enable white people to spend four yeas of their lives reading books, writing papers and feeling great about themselves.  It is a known fact that Arts students firmly believe that they are doing you/society a favor by not getting a job and reading Proust.  They use this to protest for reduced tuition, more money for the arts, and special reduced student rates on things like bus passes.

But what about the white people who study Science, Engineering or Business?  Unless they become doctors, they essentially lose white person status (and can only be regained by working at a non-profit).

So why would white people spend all that time studying and working to get into college if they are just going to read books that they might have read in their free time?  Because white people have it made.  They can take that degree and easily parlay it into a non profit job, an art gallery job, or work in publishing. If the pay is low, no problem, their parents will happily help out with rent until they magically start making six figures or non-magically turn 40.

White people can also take that degree and go to graduate school (future post) and eventually become a professor or adjunct professor where they will still require parental support.

If they are REALLY ambitious and need to make money, they can take that degree and go to Law School.

But the real reason white people need these degrees is so that they can sound smart at parties.  Of course it trickles down to making connections, getting hired, knowing rich people, and so forth.  But ultimately it all begins by saying “reading Henry James was the most rewarding part of undergrad.”

Using this to your advantage can be very difficult as attempts to talk about the books they skimmed while hungover can expose you.  It is best to say that you were a first generation college student and your parents demanded that you study math, chemistry, economics or computer science.  You had to read Joyce on your own.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02 … s-degrees/
Jay, stop baiting the Uzique.

Really, why do you feel the need to attack the liberal arts?
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6715

because, Freedom!
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

New research reveals that since the start of the financial crisis, CEOs of FTSE 100 companies increasingly have financial backgrounds. Between 2008 and 2012 the number of CEOs with a financial background increased by 67%.

The finding was made by the annual Robert Half FTSE 100 CEO Tracker. It showed that more than half (51%) of serving CEOs had a financial background.

The report defined a financial background as having a qualification in accountancy, holding a previous senior financial role or having worked in the banking industry.



And just random Googling:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/aug/2 … andelitism

The dominance of Oxford and Cambridge in British boardrooms is fading as more and more company bosses are drawn from other universities and from abroad.
A survey of the chief executives of FSTE 100 companies found the proportion who were Oxbridge educated had more than halved - 23% compared with 59% in 1984, the first year of the FTSE. The proportion who went to other British universities or colleges has risen from 38% to 48%.

Furthermore, 18 years ago, only 3% of FTSE 100 CEOs were educated abroad (all from the US), whereas in 2002 this figure increased to 29%, with 13% educated in the US, 10% in Europe and 6% from other parts of the world. This reflects ambitious British students choosing to study abroad, as well as an influx of European and American executives as companies become more international. Mary Long, head of Inspirational Development Coaching, who commissioned the report, said: "This reflects the increasingly international nature of both FTSE 100 business and their CEOs. While the Oxbridge universities remain indisputably at world-class level, their curricula do not yet include business vocational degrees in the same way as, say, Harvard or Insead do.

"Furthermore, an increasing number of British executives seek overseas education not only for the subjects offered but also to start networking internationally at the earliest possible opportunity."

Today's chief executive is much more likely to have a second degree, whereas only a tiny number did in 1984. Here the dominance of US business schools, particularly Harvard, is very marked. Harvard supplied 29% of second degrees, compared to 13% from Oxford and Cambridge.

Ms Long said Oxbridge would lose out further to the US unless the universities could establish high profiles for business to rival Harvard. It remains to be seen whether the recently established business schools - the Judge Institute at Cambridge and the Said School in Oxford - are educating the chief executives of the future. The survey by Winmark commented that they had yet to establish their credibility. "We believe that the trend away from Oxbridge as the prime source of first degrees for future CEOs will continue as other establishments continue to invest in building their reputations as providers of relevant, high quality, well-respected courses for undergraduates.

"Similarly, opportunities to study abroad will continue to grow as future CEOs take advantage of the still increasing opportunities to equip themselves with a high quality degree that will open up the right career paths for them, and potentially supply them with a useful international network of contacts," added the report.

In other respects little has changed. In 1984 there were no women at the top of FTSE 100 companies - now there is one: Marjorie Scardino, of Pearsons. And the popular myth of the "baby CEO" resulting from the dotcom boom is just that - a myth. The average age of today's CEO compared to 1984 has dropped from 54.6 years to 53.3 years, although there is a significant decrease in the number of years worked within an organisation before being promoted. Today's CEO has worked an average of 9.2 years in the company before being promoted, as opposed to 14.8 years in 1984.

Commenting on the difference between then and now, Ms Long said: "This reflects the fast-track techniques by which FTSE companies develop their future executives, as well as a higher proclivity to recruit people into senior jobs."
Roc18
`
+655|6008|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

but still nothing about the majority of fortune 100 CEOs having humanities degrees.  I can't find anything that shows this is true.

I'm a big fan of humanities degrees and see little value in going to university to get any type of 'business' degree.  But I'm wondering where you got your (what seems to be) erroneous information.
Top fields to get a job in America today

Nursing
Accounting
Computer Science.

An Accounting Degree/ CPA license will get you a job in this shitty economy. The only reason I'm not a History major is because I said to myself, what the fuck can I do with a History degree other than become a teacher?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
Wait tables like my brother in law
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
_j5689_
Dreads & Bergers
+364|6934|Riva, MD
One of my cousins did Accounting and she's living on her own in NYC if that means anything
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4472

Roc18 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

but still nothing about the majority of fortune 100 CEOs having humanities degrees.  I can't find anything that shows this is true.

I'm a big fan of humanities degrees and see little value in going to university to get any type of 'business' degree.  But I'm wondering where you got your (what seems to be) erroneous information.
Top fields to get a job in America today

Nursing
Accounting
Computer Science.

An Accounting Degree/ CPA license will get you a job in this shitty economy. The only reason I'm not a History major is because I said to myself, what the fuck can I do with a History degree other than become a teacher?
one of the lowest employed courses in the UK is computer science. the other is engineering.

also great research ilo. you linked an old article from 2002 to 'repudiate' my article and statistics from 2012. i guess it does disprove my evidence... in a kind of... back to the future sort of way. i can tell you went to a great school with excellent research skills like that.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

Uzique neglected to mention this part in his article:
"34% of CEOs at FTSE 100 companies had studied arts, humanities and social sciences subjects, while 31% came from STEM backgrounds."  .
Doesn't look like a majority to me.  60% of leaders is not the majority of FTSE CEO's.

And then there's this part.

The report, commissioned by New College of the Humanities (NCH), offers a snapshot of professional life in the UK, looking at the degrees studied by leading individuals across different sectors.  It presents a quantitative and qualitative look at the breadth of subjects covered by "the humanities", the importance of these subjects, and aims to understand what qualities graduates of humanities disciplines bring to the world of work and to society.
And to support my argument.  More current article for Uzique. 

From Robert Half.  I've worked with them a few times, including one management position.

http://www.roberthalf.co.uk/portal/site/rh-uk/menuitem.b0a52206b89cee97e7dfed10c3809fa0/?vgnextoid=4993b3c24ded6310VgnVCM100000180af90aRCRD&vgnextchannel=0198ad657c762110VgnVCM1000000100007fRCRD

23 April, 2012, London -- Strong financial management is a vital skill for the UK's most successful CEOs, according to findings from the annual Robert Half FTSE 100 CEO Tracker.  More than half (51%) of serving CEOs in the current FTSE 100 Index have financial backgrounds, compared to only 31 in 2008 - representing an overall increase of 67% since the beginning of the recession.

"It's interesting to see the shift in Britain's top listed companies, with commodity and business support services organisations displacing leisure companies; partly the result of an ongoing trend towards outsourcing business processes," said Phil Sheridan, Managing Director for Robert Half UK. "Our research serves as a signpost for ambitious CFOs and other directors looking for their next step up the employment ladder. The importance of sound financial management in an increasingly complex international regulatory environment further underlines the necessity for leaders who understand the numbers behind the business."
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6849|949

Uzique mentioned in PM he confused Fortune 100 with FTSE 1000.  So that explains away that.

You guys keep going on about the lack of jobs for people with humanities degrees, or the low pay, or their penchant for government jobs (really ironic coming from a former employee of the government).  First, I have a degree in Political Science.  I am employed.  I have been unemployed for maybe 6 months total since I graduated.  I haven't had really any problems getting a job that pays well.  But I digress-

I think it's telling that you guys always bring up potential employment and wages.  Money isn't everything.  Some people don't care about making as much money as possible.  I do not measure success by the amount of money you make.  In fact I think that metric is incredibly shallow and says more about you than any degree or job title
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4472
my mention of humanities and top roles/jobs was in rebuttal to roc's comment, the "lol humanities, enjoy your job comment". well in top companies here in the UK, humanities have a bigger presence than STEM. so lol away that. in public service and top-professions pertaining to things such as politics and law, humanities have a 60% majority over STEM and other subjects. i'd say that quite comfortably puts to rest the myth that humanities are unemployable and career-braindead. the humanities  have just as many options - if not more - than STEM graduates.

and yeah, the constant fixation on earnings and 'how will this degree benefit me materially?' are questions only asked by people with overt material concerns, i.e. first-generation university students, immigrant newcomers, etc. university for the already-comfortable middle classes is seen as a place to learn and expand your mind to new ideas. to mature and come of age, intellectually and philosophically. not to go and train rabidly for the highest possible salary. that's a peasant's conception of education, from the bottom looking up.

to the below post... yeah sure, a humanities career will NEVER be able to afford those things! and yet again, you say "money isn't everything", only to defend a completely materialistic point. incredibly shallow and one-dimensional. you are like a cardboard-cutout caricature of an asian-american. ever heard of being 'rich in spirit'? wise and learned? well-travelled mentally and intellectually, as well as paraded around the world in first-class airliners? what's the point spending money on worldly pleasures when your own intelligence is a wasteland?

Last edited by aynrandroolz (2012-10-04 15:05:01)

Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Uzique mentioned in PM he confused Fortune 100 with FTSE 1000.  So that explains away that.

You guys keep going on about the lack of jobs for people with humanities degrees, or the low pay, or their penchant for government jobs (really ironic coming from a former employee of the government).  First, I have a degree in Political Science.  I am employed.  I have been unemployed for maybe 6 months total since I graduated.  I haven't had really any problems getting a job that pays well.  But I digress-

I think it's telling that you guys always bring up potential employment and wages.  Money isn't everything.  Some people don't care about making as much money as possible.  I do not measure success by the amount of money you make.  In fact I think that metric is incredibly shallow and says more about you than any degree or job title
Money is not the end result.  It's what it allows you to do.  Month long trips to Asia.  Weekend flight to the East Coast.  Taking a few weeks off of unpaid leave.  Sending less fortunate distant relatives to college.  Going to concerts whenever.  Hitting up Disneyland anytime we want.  Etc.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5803

California Disneyland lol

The real Disneyland is in Florida.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Uzique mentioned in PM he confused Fortune 100 with FTSE 1000.  So that explains away that.

You guys keep going on about the lack of jobs for people with humanities degrees, or the low pay, or their penchant for government jobs (really ironic coming from a former employee of the government).  First, I have a degree in Political Science.  I am employed.  I have been unemployed for maybe 6 months total since I graduated.  I haven't had really any problems getting a job that pays well.  But I digress-

I think it's telling that you guys always bring up potential employment and wages.  Money isn't everything.  Some people don't care about making as much money as possible.  I do not measure success by the amount of money you make.  In fact I think that metric is incredibly shallow and says more about you than any degree or job title
I wrote this in PM to uzique but I like it so much I'll post it here too...


No, you've missed the point. Engineers are respected because they can design stuff like this:

https://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/new-york/images/s/verrazano-bridge.jpg
https://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/new_york/empire_state_building_amcrmar07_13.jpg
https://www.phxwelding.com/w-asp-pcb.jpg
https://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/satellite-radio.jpg

They create the machines that put food on your table, the generators that light your home, the entertainment device you are currently using to read this, the car you drive in, the phone you talk on etc. Tangible stuff. That's why they/we are respected. That's why America is so in love with STEM degrees.

You can write about this:
https://joberts11.wikis.birmingham.k12.mi.us/file/view/grand_canyon-12354.jpg/290906315/grand_canyon-12354.jpg

While I can build this:
https://serc.carleton.edu/images/eslabs/drought/hoover_dam.jpg

Of course we think we're better than you.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

Really Uzique.  I have nothing against the humanities.  I've told you I'm the guy who goes to the Getty, to appreciate the atmosphere, to read and contemplate.  I completely and wholly appreciate the arts.  The concert halls philharmonic, plays, etc.    I can appreciate all of these because I have the means.  And if I want to do some mindless thing like watch the Lakers, Kings, or Dodgers, I can do them with comfort from VIP seats.

What pisses most of the rest of us here is of your constant need to defend your choices in life, namely your humanities pursuit, while degrading everyone else's choices.  Hey, more power to you on humanities.  But that isn't the only path to personal enrichment.  Get off your shit that your life is superior to anyone elses.
_j5689_
Dreads & Bergers
+364|6934|Riva, MD
I think he's just a social status oriented kind of guy, if he can't feel like he's better than people, then life doesn't mean anything, lol
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

Macbeth wrote:

California Disneyland lol

The real Disneyland is in Florida.
We actually had plans to go for this Thanksgiving, Disney World that is, but other things came up.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6849|949

Jay - but you didn't mention anything about being respected for creating engineering wonders.  You consistently go on about employment and job security and wealth.  And then when it's pointed out how shallow that is, you come back with "but look at the pretty structures and what value!"  OK dude.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Uzique mentioned in PM he confused Fortune 100 with FTSE 1000.  So that explains away that.

You guys keep going on about the lack of jobs for people with humanities degrees, or the low pay, or their penchant for government jobs (really ironic coming from a former employee of the government).  First, I have a degree in Political Science.  I am employed.  I have been unemployed for maybe 6 months total since I graduated.  I haven't had really any problems getting a job that pays well.  But I digress-

I think it's telling that you guys always bring up potential employment and wages.  Money isn't everything.  Some people don't care about making as much money as possible.  I do not measure success by the amount of money you make.  In fact I think that metric is incredibly shallow and says more about you than any degree or job title
Money is not the end result.  It's what it allows you to do.  Month long trips to Asia.  Weekend flight to the East Coast.  Taking a few weeks off of unpaid leave.  Sending less fortunate distant relatives to college.  Going to concerts whenever.  Hitting up Disneyland anytime we want.  Etc.
I live in Orange County, an expensive place to live by any measure.  I went to Asia for 2 weeks last year.  I try to travel internationally at least once a year, and it isn't a lack of money that stops me if I don't.  I've been to San Fran probably 8 times this year.  I just got back from the Bahamas.  I have a mortgage on one place and pay rent at the place I live.  I pay $100s in bar tabs every weekend.  I share season tickets to the Angels and go to plenty of sporting events every year (yes, I'm sure more than you do). I'm not trying to humble brag, I'm just trying to offer a different side to what you think it is.

Jay - but you didn't mention anything about being respected for creating engineering wonders.  You consistently go on about employment and job security and wealth.  And then when it's pointed out how shallow that is, you come back with "but look at the pretty structures and what value!"  OK dude.
Come back to me when you have kids and budgeting for their education and your retirement.  Traveling solo is easy.  Try budgeting for 4+.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4472

Ilocano wrote:

What pisses most of the rest of us here is of your constant need to defend your choices in life, namely your humanities pursuit, while degrading everyone else's choices.  Hey, more power to you on humanities.  But that isn't the only path to personal enrichment.  Get off your shit that your life is superior to anyone elses.
what? i derided business subjects. they are a joke in academia and college-level study. nothing more than a cash-cow for dumb aspiring no-hopers. i have always been down with both humanities and stem. i never start these inane competitions between serious academic subjects. i said in my first post that "people with real degrees" are talking, implying 3 speakers in the conversation who all/each have humanities and stem degrees. i don't think humanities are better than stem subjects. i have never ever said that in my history of posting here. i have stated they are my preference, to put it quite simply. go back 2 pages and you'll see this conversation was started because roc made a lame standard copy+paste insult about 'humanities'. i love correcting people on this point. it's my pleasure. where have i EVER said they are the "only path to personal enrichment"? dude i have been saying all along that there is MORE to life than just money, i.e. a multi-faceted approach to living. if i thought the only path to enrichment was humanities, i'd be a buddhist monk with no worldly posessions, just reading all day. i have tried to temper your views to be more moderate and less... asian american. never anything else.

to jay's stupid 'engineers build marvels!' rhetoric above, i replied:

none of the invention has any meaning without a culture to import it into. humanities is the counterbalance to technological advancement. nothing has 'meaning' without culture and social context. america is more than just a bunch of big building projects. america is first and foremost an idea. people like this guy

https://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/media/rousseau.jpg

are FAR more important to your everyday life and the fundamental ideology of being an american than the inventor of a solid-state cap. sure, those things have changed the world a thousand times over. they have made the material conditions of our living completely different from a 100 years ago. but what gives all that matter meaning? what imbues your life with purpose and a guiding sense of values? without humanities and culture, what would even be our motivation for technological advancement and nation building? nations are built on ideals and principles, not the empty worship of technology.

also science and engineering in the 20th century has been responsible for three major disasters: the atomic bomb, post-lenin communism, and fascism. the latter two political ideologies are both totally based on scientific rationalism and trying to devise industrial systems to run a country like a logical system-- a machine analogy. all three things have been totally disastrous, killing hundreds of millions of people and possibly posing the extinction of the human race itself. so engineering and technicism aren't all that. you need culture and philosophy and ethics to keep all that invention in some sort of moral guiding framework. otherwise you have mao's agrarian china, stalin's bureaucracy, fascism's machine worship.

in simpler terms: science and STEM more generally is the endeavour of human mastery over nature. humanities and philosophy is interested in humans coming to a better understanding of humanity itself, both on the level of civilization and of the individual subject. science and STEM allow us material benefits to live more comfortably within nature (you could call this τέχνη to be smart, materal accomplishment); humanities and the rest try to enable us to have better self-understanding and to imbue life with value (epistēmē). one without the other is a completely meaningless existence. to try and say one is 'better' than the other is just plain silly, no other word for it.

--

which i think neatly supports what i have just said to you, ilo. i have never tried to put forward anything so inane as to say 'humanities is better than stem'. i think they both have an equal and rightful place. one thing i do think is a problem is the anti-intellectualism prevalent in american culture, and the strange stereotyping/stigmatization of 'liberal arts' students, like they are doing useless/rich wank degrees. totally untrue. that's an ugly side to america's post-1950's dominant scientific ideology. a nation that loses touch with culture and philosophy becomes a nation quickly unbound - a nation that loses perspective and a real sense of its place in the world.

Last edited by aynrandroolz (2012-10-04 15:36:36)

FatherTed
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