eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5251|foggy bottom

Ty wrote:

I think you're pettifogging a bit 11B. What difference do materials or measurements make really make to someone wanting to use a weapon to kill people in a movie theatre? Military grade weapons may be hardier to cope with a beating but this civilian AR-15 was no less effective in the situation it was used than a weapon deemed to be 'military'. The weapon didn't necessarily jam because it was of inferior quality and even if it did had this bloke known how to clear a stoppage it wouldn't have slowed him down.

Also if you'd read further than the first line you would have seen that I considered that in the military, at least in my admittedly limited experience, assault weapons are generally used in semi-automatic except in certain circumstances. I don't consider the civilian model's inability to be fired in automatic mode something that makes it less dangerous. I wonder if you'd agree that placing your rounds is more effective than spraying gunfire everywhere.

And newbie, people are scared of weapons like the AR-15 because they are scary, not just because of its aesthetics. A 20+ round magazine isn't designed to take out bunnies. You don't need semi-automatic fire to take out a deer. These 'civilian' models are deemed as such as a pointless attempt to differentiate them from the military weapons from which their design is based. And military weapons are designed to kill humans.

'kay I really mean it now, I'm going to shut up. I don't want to stay late at work tonight.
dude, the weapon he used was semi automatic. no different rate of fire than a hunting rifle or a handgun or revolver.  unless im mistaken and it was a fully automatic ar.  it could have been a colt peacemaker and he would have had the same rate of fire.

and your thought on semi auto fire being the standard  in the military is incorrect.

Last edited by eleven bravo (2012-07-23 20:13:48)

Tu Stultus Es
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5465|Ventura, California
If he stuck to handguns I think the death toll would have been higher.

I entirely agree with Eleven Bravo and Jay here by the way. I have a mini-14 which is a ranch rifle designed for taking out small game. It comes with a 5 round magazine but I could easily get a 30 round mag and go kill people with it. It fires the same round, at the same rate of fire as the one used here but because the AR-15 is a derivative of a military assault rifle it's a bigger deal. WTF

People are retarded. If anybody starts being a pussy in congress and tries to make more gun laws I want eleven and jay to talk his ass straight.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6766|Noizyland

Well I'll defer to you on military matters eleven bravo but I know how I was trained. (I was trained that automatic fire is either for gunners, for when you expect to be contacted at close range or for immediate response to an ambush.)

Look, to me a hunting rifle is a rifle designed for hunting. The kind of weapon that you would only expect to fire once or twice in an outing unless you sucked. Yeah some people opt for semi-autos, personal preference I guess though certainly not necessary. An AR-15 though, be it a civilian or military model, has high capacity, semi-automatic fire, pistol grip, flash suppressor - let's not beat around the bushmaster, it is designed to kill people. It has no practical purpose other than killing people.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me but I don't think my stance is too difficult to understand.

Also I'd suggest that the reason 'lefties', (why your political ideology has to reflect your attitude to guns I don't know,) go after assault rifles is because they have to start somewhere and going after the weapons that are designed specifically to kill people is an obvious place to start.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5251|foggy bottom
most engagements are going to be in urban terrain (close range).  the only time you are going to use semi fire as a rifle man is if youre engaging targets passed a certain distance.  obviously.  but most modern combat will be MOUT.  I think of the example of a buddy of mine who was using his M4 on semi and got fuck up big time in a firefight.  since that moment, SOP was switch it to burst.

as far as the difference between  military and hunting weapons.  I dont see one.  A firearm is a firearm is a firearm.  Its a pipe designed to spit out a tiny peice of metal.  whether that metal lands on a peice of paper, a deer or an innocent human being, the bullet doesnt know where its going, only you. 

BTW, I consider myself more lefty than anything else.
Tu Stultus Es
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5465|Ventura, California
There's no need to start restricting guns for any reason whatsoever; there never was and there never will be. We're in the United States of America. The whole reason we exist is because we didn't restrict the ownership of guns. Japan didn't have a land invasion of Hawaii because every freaking person there owned a gun [citation needed]. We need more sane people with guns, not less.

What if another student at the University massacre had a gun? He could have taken down the guy using Tek-9s. The Arizona shooting? A guy could have shot him too. This argument could be used in every instance and there are plenty of news stories of gun owners thwarting or killing would-be thieves, rapers, or murderers. If a crazy person wants a gun badly enough he can obtain one legally or illegally. Taking away guns only limits the rights of the people that abide by those laws in the first place.

Here's a little something to think about...
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600854_3633649356157_626292963_n.jpg

Why would you want to limit weapons in any way from the people who aren't crazy? I know people I could get illegal weapons from and I'm just some 19 year old dumbass that wants to get into the military. Imagine what somebody with bad intentions could come across?

If even one other person in that theater was armed it would have ended differently if said person wasn't a dumbass.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

most engagements are going to be in urban terrain (close range).  the only time you are going to use semi fire as a rifle man is if youre engaging targets passed a certain distance.  obviously.  but most modern combat will be MOUT.  I think of the example of a buddy of mine who was using his M4 on semi and got fuck up big time in a firefight.  since that moment, SOP was switch it to burst.

as far as the difference between  military and hunting weapons.  I dont see one.  A firearm is a firearm is a firearm.  Its a pipe designed to spit out a tiny peice of metal.  whether that metal lands on a peice of paper, a deer or an innocent human being, the bullet doesnt know where its going, only you. 

BTW, I consider myself more lefty than anything else.
Yes, but you knew what I meant. The limousine liberal types view vets, and the type of people that cry when the national anthem is sung, as weird (the former are weird, but that's besides the point). They have an emotional reaction when they see Gadsden Flags and AR-15s because they don't have any understanding of the culture or beliefs those people possess. It's not universal by any means, but it's there. The derision aimed at 'rednecks' is pretty intense.

And Ty, that's how the right-left thing ends up involving gun rights and gun control discussions. Everything in America has to be polar it seems.

Last edited by Jay (2012-07-23 22:04:55)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

Ty wrote:

Well I'll defer to you on military matters eleven bravo but I know how I was trained. (I was trained that automatic fire is either for gunners, for when you expect to be contacted at close range or for immediate response to an ambush.)

Look, to me a hunting rifle is a rifle designed for hunting. The kind of weapon that you would only expect to fire once or twice in an outing unless you sucked. Yeah some people opt for semi-autos, personal preference I guess though certainly not necessary. An AR-15 though, be it a civilian or military model, has high capacity, semi-automatic fire, pistol grip, flash suppressor - let's not beat around the bushmaster, it is designed to kill people. It has no practical purpose other than killing people.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me but I don't think my stance is too difficult to understand.

Also I'd suggest that the reason 'lefties', (why your political ideology has to reflect your attitude to guns I don't know,) go after assault rifles is because they have to start somewhere and going after the weapons that are designed specifically to kill people is an obvious place to start.
JFK was shot with a bolt action rifle. So were the students on the UT campus. So were millions of Russians, British and American soldiers during WWII. The kind of weapon used is irrelevant. Everything you named is cosmetic stuff that has no real impact in a crowded theater.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

-Sh1fty- wrote:

There's no need to start restricting guns for any reason whatsoever; there never was and there never will be. We're in the United States of America. The whole reason we exist is because we didn't restrict the ownership of guns. Japan didn't have a land invasion of Hawaii because every freaking person there owned a gun [citation needed]. We need more sane people with guns, not less.

What if another student at the University massacre had a gun? He could have taken down the guy using Tek-9s. The Arizona shooting? A guy could have shot him too. This argument could be used in every instance and there are plenty of news stories of gun owners thwarting or killing would-be thieves, rapers, or murderers. If a crazy person wants a gun badly enough he can obtain one legally or illegally. Taking away guns only limits the rights of the people that abide by those laws in the first place.

Here's a little something to think about...


Why would you want to limit weapons in any way from the people who aren't crazy? I know people I could get illegal weapons from and I'm just some 19 year old dumbass that wants to get into the military. Imagine what somebody with bad intentions could come across?

If even one other person in that theater was armed it would have ended differently if said person wasn't a dumbass.
Please stop posting. You are your own worst enemy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ROGUEDD
BF2s. A Liberal Gang of Faggots.
+452|5380|Fuck this.

Jay wrote:

Ty wrote:

Well I'll defer to you on military matters eleven bravo but I know how I was trained. (I was trained that automatic fire is either for gunners, for when you expect to be contacted at close range or for immediate response to an ambush.)

Look, to me a hunting rifle is a rifle designed for hunting. The kind of weapon that you would only expect to fire once or twice in an outing unless you sucked. Yeah some people opt for semi-autos, personal preference I guess though certainly not necessary. An AR-15 though, be it a civilian or military model, has high capacity, semi-automatic fire, pistol grip, flash suppressor - let's not beat around the bushmaster, it is designed to kill people. It has no practical purpose other than killing people.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me but I don't think my stance is too difficult to understand.

Also I'd suggest that the reason 'lefties', (why your political ideology has to reflect your attitude to guns I don't know,) go after assault rifles is because they have to start somewhere and going after the weapons that are designed specifically to kill people is an obvious place to start.
JFK was shot with a bolt action rifle. So were the students on the UT campus. So were millions of Russians, British and American soldiers during WWII. The kind of weapon used is irrelevant. Everything you named is cosmetic stuff that has no real impact in a crowded theater.
Not entirely numerically accurate, but still.

https://bp1.blogger.com/_iIgGzjVNEAk/SDV7Sj-MIOI/AAAAAAAAAj4/IlWdNxNeWSo/s400/moisin.jpg
Make X-meds a full member, for the sake of 15 year old anal gangbang porn watchers everywhere!
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5251|foggy bottom
i feel serious discomfort when Im around the "america fuck yeah git r done im so anti politically correct" crowd.
Tu Stultus Es
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5465|Ventura, California
great way to debate Jay
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6729|Oxferd Ohire
im not a fan of political correctness
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

-Sh1fty- wrote:

great way to debate Jay
I'm not debating you. I'm saying that you are exactly what people who want more stringent gun control see in their mind when they are arguing for stricter legislation. You are inarticulate, ignorant, and you have that false bravado based on nothing that most gun owners possess. You are your own worst enemy because every time you post or open your mouth people automatically want to side against whatever stance you are taking.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5465|Ventura, California
@Jay: I go to secluded ranges where I'm not putting society at danger or annoying them with 150db+ noise. I keep my guns in a safe place with the ammunition in a different area of the house. I have a hunting rifle, I'm getting a shotgun this week, and I plan on buying a handgun at 21 for self-defense; then my gun purchasing stops there.

I'm the definition of a good gun owner. I'll have a shotgun for home-defense and skeet shooting, a rifle for having fun on the range or hunting small game, and I'll have a handgun for my own personal defense whenever I'm out-n-about. I'm a responsible person and I'm good with gun safety.

I don't see your problem. I'm on your side anyway and I feel the same about everything you've said until now.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England
Yes, but you make stupid comments like 'if there were more guns then the shooting in the theater would've ended differently'. Have you been in combat? Could you take the shot in a dark theater with a hundred screaming people running around, loud gunfire, terror, and everything else that was going on? Could one person out of ten thousand take that shot without hitting innocent people? Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe. And that's where my problem lies. You make stupid comments like that and by doing so you undermine everything that eleven bravo and I had said previously in the thread. Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5251|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:

Yes, but you make stupid comments like 'if there were more guns then the shooting in the theater would've ended differently'. Have you been in combat? Could you take the shot in a dark theater with a hundred screaming people running around, loud gunfire, terror, and everything else that was going on? Could one person out of ten thousand take that shot without hitting innocent people? Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe. And that's where my problem lies. You make stupid comments like that and by doing so you undermine everything that eleven bravo and I had said previously in the thread. Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
also any first responders showing up would probably shoot charles bronson along with the bad guy
Tu Stultus Es
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5465|Ventura, California

Jay wrote:

Yes, but you make stupid comments like 'if there were more guns then the shooting in the theater would've ended differently'. Have you been in combat? Could you take the shot in a dark theater with a hundred screaming people running around, loud gunfire, terror, and everything else that was going on? Could one person out of ten thousand take that shot without hitting innocent people? Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe. And that's where my problem lies. You make stupid comments like that and by doing so you undermine everything that eleven bravo and I had said previously in the thread. Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
I heard the guy was standing in front of the screen when he did the shooting. Not hard to hit a bigass silhouette. I understand there would be confusion and panic. I'm just saying it's better to be able to defend yourself than sit there and hope you're not the random target of the next .223 that enters the chamber.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6460
-Crowded
-Dark
-Loud
-Tear Gas
-Panic+Mayhem

IDEAL SHOOTING CONDITIONS
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5251|foggy bottom
I heard there was some rich kid int he audience whose parents were big time millionaires who put a lot of money into the aurora community and who were both killed.  the kid cant stop talking about revenge.  he also has an irrational fear of sloths.
Tu Stultus Es
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6729|Oxferd Ohire
yea im pretty sure youd have people trying to shove past you as youre aiming/getting gun out
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6767|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
but, man, most of the people are like that. there's nothing else to take away from this, really. from what i can tell by talking to americans, people like you who take guns and responsibility that comes with possessing them seriously are but a small minority. the problem is, even after, what, some 250 years you've existed as a nation with constitution and all, most of the people who stand up to defend you gun law are flag waving macho idiots. go figure.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6460

Shahter wrote:

Jay wrote:

Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
but, man, most of the people are like that. there's nothing else to take away from this, really. from what i can tell by talking to americans, people like you who take guns and responsibility that comes with possessing them seriously are but a small minority. the problem is, even after, what, some 250 years you've existed as a nation with constitution and all, most of the people who stand up to defend you gun law are flag waving macho idiots. go figure.
STOP DICK-RIDING STALIN, NO ONE GIVES A FUCK.
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6729|Oxferd Ohire
russia is best country
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney

ROGUEDD wrote:

Jay wrote:

Ty wrote:

Well I'll defer to you on military matters eleven bravo but I know how I was trained. (I was trained that automatic fire is either for gunners, for when you expect to be contacted at close range or for immediate response to an ambush.)

Look, to me a hunting rifle is a rifle designed for hunting. The kind of weapon that you would only expect to fire once or twice in an outing unless you sucked. Yeah some people opt for semi-autos, personal preference I guess though certainly not necessary. An AR-15 though, be it a civilian or military model, has high capacity, semi-automatic fire, pistol grip, flash suppressor - let's not beat around the bushmaster, it is designed to kill people. It has no practical purpose other than killing people.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me but I don't think my stance is too difficult to understand.

Also I'd suggest that the reason 'lefties', (why your political ideology has to reflect your attitude to guns I don't know,) go after assault rifles is because they have to start somewhere and going after the weapons that are designed specifically to kill people is an obvious place to start.
JFK was shot with a bolt action rifle. So were the students on the UT campus. So were millions of Russians, British and American soldiers during WWII. The kind of weapon used is irrelevant. Everything you named is cosmetic stuff that has no real impact in a crowded theater.
Not entirely numerically accurate, but still.

Pretty close though:

Simo Häyhä (Finnish pronunciation: [ˈsimɔ ˈhæy̯hæ]; December 17, 1905 – April 1, 2002), nicknamed "White Death" (Russian: Белая смерть, Belaya Smert; Finnish: valkoinen kuolema; Swedish: den vita döden) by the Red Army, was a Finnish sniper. Using a modified Mosin–Nagant in the Winter War, he has the highest recorded number of confirmed sniper kills – 505 – in any major war.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5170|Sydney

Jay wrote:

Yes, but you make stupid comments like 'if there were more guns then the shooting in the theater would've ended differently'. Have you been in combat? Could you take the shot in a dark theater with a hundred screaming people running around, loud gunfire, terror, and everything else that was going on? Could one person out of ten thousand take that shot without hitting innocent people? Maybe. Doubtful, but maybe. And that's where my problem lies. You make stupid comments like that and by doing so you undermine everything that eleven bravo and I had said previously in the thread. Your post will become the focus and your flag waving macho idiocy will be the image people take away. It's what happens every time ignorant fuckhead rednecks open their mouth on the subject.
I blame (in part) Hollywood.

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