rdx-fx
...
+955|6806

Uzique wrote:

it's not the word of law that western society is bound to - though the law is pretty much a synecdoche for what we are truly bound to.

western society is bound to a religious reverence for Reason. to the point of ir-reason. we think everything can be dealt with within the realms of the reasonable, the rational, the logical. we have very little time since the enlightenment for irrationalism (or romanticism if you will), despite the evidence that is it clearly a large force in our economic-market system and everyday life. law is just an extension of our blind following of so-called reason (to the point where the laws and orders we follow are perversely irrational).

if you were continuing the generalisation, you could just simply say that the middle-east hasn't had a giant enlightenment philosophic tradition that places reason at the centre of human experience. thus they're far more comfortable with spiritualism and forms of social norm and government rule that don't follow western reason's handmaid, individualism.
It's not so much the Enlightenment that marks the split between Middle East and West.
More the Western emphasis on the Rule of Law, with the "separation of church and state" as a prime example.

The West plays lip service to governance by Reason, in about the same measure as the Middle East plays lip service to governance by Sharia.
Both may be the romantic stated intent, but both are a thin veil covering the reality; adherence to established (written) rules, and submitting to established authority, respectively.
(with the word 'submitting' particularly chosen, as that is the literal translation of the word Islam).

To pick a single word for the two cultures,
The word for the West is Bureaucracy.
The word for the Middle East is Submission.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6806

Uzique wrote:

i was being facetious with that comment. i guess the "degenerate" part didn't give the joke away.
I understood the humor.

With the reply after it misinterpreting my comment as racism, I figured it'd be better to make a distinction.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685

rdx-fx wrote:

Uzique wrote:

it's not the word of law that western society is bound to - though the law is pretty much a synecdoche for what we are truly bound to.

western society is bound to a religious reverence for Reason. to the point of ir-reason. we think everything can be dealt with within the realms of the reasonable, the rational, the logical. we have very little time since the enlightenment for irrationalism (or romanticism if you will), despite the evidence that is it clearly a large force in our economic-market system and everyday life. law is just an extension of our blind following of so-called reason (to the point where the laws and orders we follow are perversely irrational).

if you were continuing the generalisation, you could just simply say that the middle-east hasn't had a giant enlightenment philosophic tradition that places reason at the centre of human experience. thus they're far more comfortable with spiritualism and forms of social norm and government rule that don't follow western reason's handmaid, individualism.
It's not so much the Enlightenment that marks the split between Middle East and West.
More the Western emphasis on the Rule of Law, with the "separation of church and state" as a prime example.

The West plays lip service to governance by Reason, in about the same measure as the Middle East plays lip service to governance by Sharia.
Both may be the romantic stated intent, but both are a thin veil covering the reality; adherence to established (written) rules, and submitting to established authority, respectively.
(with the word 'submitting' particularly chosen, as that is the literal translation of the word Islam).

To pick a single word for the two cultures,
The word for the West is Bureaucracy.
The word for the Middle East is Submission.
i think you have to keep the distinction between a secular europe and a christian america... we don't have our way of life enshrined in a written constitution. so the whole 'abide by the word' thing that smacks of both constitutional government and christian faith is a little lost on european people. we like to consider our legal systems merely an extension of Reason. the social contract, and so on.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
rdx-fx
...
+955|6806

Uzique wrote:

i think you have to keep the distinction between a secular europe and a christian america... we don't have our way of life enshrined in a written constitution. so the whole 'abide by the word' thing that smacks of both constitutional government and christian faith is a little lost on european people. we like to consider our legal systems merely an extension of Reason. the social contract, and so on.
I suppose a blind adherence to written rules and pretty uniforms doesn't sit well on the Continent, after Germany's memorable experiment with National Socialism.

Though Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker series is a humorous commentary on British Bureaucracy.

As far as I can see, the Nordic countries are the closest to a functioning rational secular society.
Again, with much of that to do with their cultural norms favoring their secular governments.

Idealized forms of government aren't "one size fits all", they have to be tailored to fit the cultural norms of the governed people.
Seems obvious, but I think that gets missed in too many political discussions.
Definitely got missed by everyone that tried to push American Democracy on Iraq...
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685
i think bureaucracy is a consequence of capitalism more than anything - that commingling of markets with politics. though douglas adams', as far as i know, was also satirising a uniquely british 'little englander' syndrome. if you want to cite a european country that has bureaucracy as its ultimate nadir, look no further than post-mitterrand france. i think something like 40% of the workforce work for the state. no other country has a bureaucracy like post-lefty france. incidentally also the nation that gave us the entire idea of individual freedom, liberty, and a government based on reason and representation...

Last edited by Uzique (2012-04-10 10:24:53)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6952|Oxferd Ohire
but we were taught that was america D:
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685
liberté, égalité, fraternité!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
13rin
Member
+977|6694
I just learned that postage rates were increased from 44 to 45 cents for a first class letter up to an ounce.  I've still got many 44 cent stamps.  Now I have to get a ton of 01 cent stamps.  Goddamnit
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

13rin wrote:

I just learned that postage rates were increased from 44 to 45 cents for a first class letter up to an ounce.  I've still got many 44 cent stamps.  Now I have to get a ton of 01 cent stamps.  Goddamnit
But now you can buy Forever Stamps!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13rin
Member
+977|6694
Yea... from now on.  I hardly use stamps nowadays, so they tend to sit around.  I'm glad I checked before I mailed my insurance premium check in.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6715|so randum
wait don't you like buy a stamp, and then thats it you have your stamp

if your stamp increases in price after you buy it, you have to make up the difference before you can use it?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6908
Yep.
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5474|foggy bottom
if you buy a 40 cent stamp and the price of postage goes up a cent you still have a 40 cent stamp
Tu Stultus Es
13rin
Member
+977|6694
yes... Unless it is a 'forever' stamp... So I gotta add 01 cent stamps to all my letters.  Or they send it back to you (which probably costs them more in the long run)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6715|so randum
oh so you have to make a certain value of stamps on a letter for it to be sent

i c now. we just have two flat rates, usually dictating the speed it gets delivered
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

oh so you have to make a certain value of stamps on a letter for it to be sent

i c now. we just have two flat rates, usually dictating the speed it gets delivered
We have that too, but they keep raising the cost of postage because our postal service is bankrupt.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5474|foggy bottom
your mom is a flat rate
Tu Stultus Es
rdx-fx
...
+955|6806

Uzique wrote:

i think bureaucracy is a consequence of capitalism more than anything - that commingling of markets with politics.
I think it's more fundamental than that.

Bureaucracy is a consequence of culture.
Changing a culture is difficult, changing a government is relatively easy.

Look at the last 10,000 years of Chinese government.
Every form of government they've had, has always ended up as something more Chinese than N-ocracy.

Look at the last 1,000 years of Russian history.
Monarchy, Marxism, Communism, Soviet, Russian Democracy, Kleptocracy.
Always ends up with a ruthless bastard running the show.
Katherine, Stalin, Nikki K., Putin.

This is why the Arab Spring will fail, in the eyes of the rest of the world.
The only winners from the Arab Spring will end up being the Islamist extremists.

For all the superficial differences, England, France, and the US share a fundamental cultural basis.
Hence the reason our governments tend to end up in similar end-states (bureaucracy).

Doesn't matter what flavor of brand new idealized government you start with, the culture of the people will drift that form of government towards an end-state that 'fits' the culture.

Like putting Jay in a dress.  He's going to uncomfortably twist and squirm until he's back in shorts and sandals...
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685
i use these guys for my mail

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O7CJqekiHq0/TwJcQ41mWcI/AAAAAAAABSA/6dRJ0t4juBc/post%2Bhorn.jpg
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685
we await silent tristero's empire
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England
Bureaucracy came about because people tried to apply the scientific method to government. Really has nothing to do with economic philosophy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eusgen
Nugget
+402|7007|Jupiter
wat
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5917|College Park, MD

Uzique wrote:

i use these guys for my mail

that was the weirdest fucking book we read in high school
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
rdx-fx
...
+955|6806

eleven bravo wrote:

your mom is a flat rate
yeah?

well your mamma is the UPS truck!
"what can brown do for you?!"

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6685
seriously surprised any high-school set that text as required-reading. it's considered difficult for graduate students.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

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