Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689

Ilocano wrote:

Uzique wrote:

You must have gone to a shitty school then eleven b. The hardest markers (and also the best guides) here at my school are the majority that got their PhD's and cut their teeth at Oxbridge. You can tell which ones didn't. They're far more relaxed and their lessons aren't as good.
Depends on the field of study.  I'll take technology extension courses from an active infield Project Manager with only a BS than from some Emeritus PhD Theorist with no current tech hard experience.
We're talking about academia why are you going on about vocational training? No one cares. You can get those from anywhere.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6325|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:

Silly anti-academic Dilbert. I've been gone 4 months and you still haven't got yourself a new argument? Poor show, fella.
Academia is fine, just so long as it has some real world application - to deserve public money at least.
Or it should be privately funded, take your pick.

Arguing that academia should be govt funded to perpetuate the cosy academic world because its existed in the past - when it wasn't typically govt funded - is a strange argument.
Perpetuating 'academia' solely for the purpose of perpetuating it makes no conceivable sense.

The subjects which should supposedly be continued at the taxpayers expense according to you are almost arbitrary, they have their pretentious 'value' solely because of quirks of history, not value in their own right.

In different circumstances you'd be arguing equally hard that History of Engineering is where its at because thats what all the great leaders studied, or that hipsters should be paid to sit in libraries and wistfully look out of the window as they ponder the historical significance of crop rotation systems before Noah or the long term effect of different bronze alloys on modern society - 'because thats how you develop critical thinking'. Instead of subjects like History of Art and 'Classics' which basically boils down to the pontification of long-dead boy-rapists.

I'd argue that the various agricultural and industrial revolutions have had far more impact on the world and much more modern relevance and in many more ways than obscure texts in dead languages.

Through history the hipsters have spent 10% of their time doing, and 90% of their time telling people about it, whereas the achievers do the reverse. I'd rather the study of doers were funded and perpetuated, and thats where govt money should go. Maybe then doers would begin to be respected and the slackers lose their pretentious 'value'.
Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
I can't argue with you because you always think History students are studying the paleolithic or something. And that anyone that doesn't do a hard science or something with direct industry/job relevance is thus a "pretentious hipster gazing wistfully out the window". Come back when you have something reasoned to say.

One of my best friends is doing a History MA at UCL after graduating from RHUL with me. His specialismis 1970's America. Is he a waste of time and money? I guess cause he's one of those History students he's just doing it because of an "eccentric quirk" and his research has absolutely no worth whatsoever. May as well be studying the history of the fork in stone-age Siberia, right? You are an ingrate.

Last edited by Uzique (2012-04-05 17:42:30)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6325|eXtreme to the maX
Is anyone going to act on anything he writes?

Nope.
Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
How do you know? He's been given a summer scholarship to go and study at a the library of Congress and to stay with a US college for a semester, so somebody clearly thinks it may have some use. A little presumptuous and silly of you to say that, isn't it? The whole point of academia is to make a dent in human knowledge somehow, to make your contribution. Who cares if he isn't going to be unearthing the secret life of Hitler, or discovering gravity? It's 2012. Your bone-headed opinions are stupid.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5804

The recent history of a nation is a pretty important thing to have studied. Hell, all of history has value in studying. History is constantly being revised, reinterpreted, and expanded upon. As knowledge of a field grows some of it will find its way in children's classrooms and into popular culture and entertainment. In turn peoples perception of their country, themselves, other countries, and other peoples are affected. It does matter.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6325|eXtreme to the maX
How is rehashing recent history adding in any way to human knowledge?
Its presumptious and silly of you to say that it is, with nothing to back up that statement more than assumptions.

I think real progress would be if hipsters could get past the idea that they should be paid to do nothing useful to anyone.
Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
Nope, sorry. All funding should go to sciences. I'm not sure Dilbert realises just how abstract and theoretical PhD-level sciences are. Like they're going to make an incredible impact on society practically and tangibly, whereas the history grad working on archives isn't going to shed any light whatsoever. It's the same old bias. Unfortunately for Dilbert the people in control of higher-education and funding pretty much disagree wtih him... worldwide. Looks like all those subjects he sucks at and has no interest in are here to stay. With their "pretentious hipster" students. Lol. I guess the only valid type of student is the one wearing socks+sandals who still lets his mom cut his hair and studies s c i e n c e
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689

Dilbert_X wrote:

How is rehashing recent history adding in any way to human knowledge?
Its presumptious and silly of you to say that it is, with nothing to back up that statement more than assumptions.

I think real progress would be if hipsters could get past the idea that they should be paid to do nothing useful to anyone.
You clearly know nothing about historical research if you think it is "rehashing history". Lol. Funny. This reminds me of that time Galt said (in all seriousness) "what do English grads do? Look in libraries for rare books that have never been found and studied before?". Hahaha. Great understanding Dilbert. I think we know you're trolling now. We're done here.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5804

revised, reinterpreted, and expanded upon.
reinterpreted, and expanded upon.
and expanded upon.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
Hey Dilbert if my history friend started going to comic conventions and requesting sincere autographs from hideous Z-list celebrities to pet his social-misfit teen-erotic self... will he be less pretentious and more of a socially acceptable graduate student then? Seems like you have a serious problem with people that study subjects that don't fit your narrow definition of a 'student' or 'scholar'.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6325|eXtreme to the maX
Ah, personal insults, the point at which you've lost the argument.

So, point to one socially useful bit of progress which has come out of the study of history.
I can't think of one.

Or maybe put a cash value on a hipster thinking 'zomg that is like sooooooo true.'

Either way, its not worth the amount of govt funding you think should go into it, the govt agrees with that situation, bad luck for hipsters I guess.

(And I'm very familiar with the sort of esoteric research done in a Science PhD, having been offered a number of fully funded places myself)
Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
I haven't lost the argument at all. Nope. Funny cause Galt said the same thing when I refused to enter into a 3-page quote-breakdown with him to explain the intricacies of what an English graduate does (in response to his "see? you can't tell me. all you do is look in libraries for old books"). It's not that I've lost - it's that your argument is so biased and so crude that there's nothing really to reply to. Or at least nothing that's worth the 3 pages of toil to make you see. Because we know what happens in the end. You turn around and say something like "well I hate Dickens, anyway", and then just stop posting in the thread and go back to making anti-America posts or posting butt pictures. It's just not worth my time. The people that have the money and funding seem to disagree with you. Which would suggest that the current way of doing things is at least fundamentally correct, and you are wrong.

Also where were you offered funding for? Who offered you the funding? How was that done, exactly? I'm intrigued, do tell.

Last edited by Uzique (2012-04-05 18:17:34)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6325|eXtreme to the maX
Yes, I remember the list of total twaddle you posted - 'Jewishness in Medieval Times' being one.

So in summary, despite posting paragraphs and paragraphs - via your minions even - you're not going to write a couple of sentences to back up your own argument and instead continue with the personal insults.

Well done.
Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
No I'm not going to defend why history is worth funding because a) I don't take history and b) it's not really up for debate, is it? History is funded. Society supports it. The education establishment supports it. Everything would indicate that people are fine with History research being funded... except you. Why should that then entail a three-page discussion to convince the only person that disagrees - you? Quite strange thinking.

And yeah, good job. My point about English PHD's was they are multidisciplinary and involve a lot of academic heft and intellectual ability - something Jay questioned. I posted a list of Colombia PhD researchers to simply show that it is a discipline worth its salt, contrary to Jay's view (no doubt inherited from his naval college English classes) that it was basically a 3-year high-school book report course. If someone got funding to study Jewishness in Medieval Times... well then that's Colombia's prerogative. You'll also find that a large majority of the PhD's on that list were current and relevant to today, as well. Though of course your memory probably doesn't recall those. Funny how your mind works when it comes to stuff you don't like.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5577|London, England
Dunno why you keep mentioning me in every other sentence...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689
I've mentioned you in two posts because your previous argument mirrors Dilbert's exactly. The only difference is he's taking up against History now and you took up against the supposed difficulty of English. I refer to the argument because, as entertaining as it is to lecture to the ignorant, I don't have the time nor the effort to be the guardian saviour of all arts and humanities students, everywhere, at all times. I realise I'm a little outnumbered by Science-types here on BF2s (as you'd expect from a gaming demographic), but that doesn't mean I'm going to be the tireless defender of everything non-Science. It should be obvious. I'll refer to that prior argument because I typed a shitload back then in response to you, and I sure as fuck ain't recycling it for Dilbert's leisure now.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689

Dilbert_X wrote:

(And I'm very familiar with the sort of esoteric research done in a Science PhD, having been offered a number of fully funded places myself)
Also you failed to give me the details about this. What was your proposal and research area? How did that come about? I'd like to know because I'm very familiar with the funding process now and would love to hear about your experiences.

Oh and furthermore, would anyone have acted on anything you did for your theoretical science PhD? I'm guessing the answer is 'no'. There's a joke about science/math theoretical PhD's... only 3 people will ever read them and that's the people on your viva committee. Esoteric isn't even the word. And literally nobody outside of your micro-niche will ever care about it. So how is your science PhD any different from his History research, effectively? Guess we should cut funding for the self-indulgent scientists, as well then. Pretentious gits.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5577|London, England
I just don't understand the point of English analysis. There are people that are paid to research into the lives of long dead authors in order to glean some hidden nugget from a piece of poetry or a novel they wrote. To you that is something worthwhile, to me, it's just a complete waste of time. I always hated 'close reading' because most of the stuff pointed out to explain other peoples work was based on guesses, or pop psychology, or something from some women's studies class he or she took as an undergrad. I'm clearly not going to change anything about the system, but I have a very strong dislike for the way English is taught in general. I want to deal in facts, not someones interpretation of what someone else wrote.

I just don't have the same issue with any other subject. I recognize the importance of history. I recognize the important of pure math and pure science. But English? Nah. Maybe it's taught differently in the UK (doubtful based on your passion for Joyce).

I'm not entering this pissing contest though. I really don't care. This is just my own opinion on the matter.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5920|College Park, MD
some folks just love English
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5577|London, England
More power to 'em. I understand that it's necessary to test people on the things they've read, but I think English departments the world over jumped the shark at some point and took it to the OCD extreme.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Miggle
FUCK UBISOFT
+1,411|6961|FUCK UBISOFT

Jay wrote:

I understand that it's necessary to test people on the things they've read,
how do you figure?
https://i.imgur.com/86fodNE.png
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689

Jay wrote:

I just don't understand the point of English analysis. There are people that are paid to research into the lives of long dead authors in order to glean some hidden nugget from a piece of poetry or a novel they wrote. To you that is something worthwhile, to me, it's just a complete waste of time. I always hated 'close reading' because most of the stuff pointed out to explain other peoples work was based on guesses, or pop psychology, or something from some women's studies class he or she took as an undergrad. I'm clearly not going to change anything about the system, but I have a very strong dislike for the way English is taught in general. I want to deal in facts, not someones interpretation of what someone else wrote.

I just don't have the same issue with any other subject. I recognize the importance of history. I recognize the important of pure math and pure science. But English? Nah. Maybe it's taught differently in the UK (doubtful based on your passion for Joyce).

I'm not entering this pissing contest though. I really don't care. This is just my own opinion on the matter.
We've already said everything we have to say to one another on the subject. You went to a shitty school. You don't really know what you're talking about. "Close reading"? Since when was English at university level about close-reading. Maybe if you were at Yale in the 1920's you'd be doing lots of close reading... but that was a very short lived thing (New Criticism). Nobody does close reading at university level. I'm working on 4 research papers right now, and just for e.g. one of them is on new conceptions and portrayals of subjective time in the 20th century, relying on the thought of Heidegger and Bergson. That's hardcore philosophy and is directly relevant to our subjective experience today. Nowhere am I spending time digging around in old books for a factoid that nobody has ever noticed before... I'm not doing a degree in Pedanticism.

Also I wouldn't know anything about 'pop psychology'. Maybe you can tell me something about it? Whenever I've engaged with psychology or any other discipline I've been marked and peer-reviewed by Professors in that subject, and I've done just fine. Lacan, Jung, Deleuze/Guattari... I'm pretty good on academic psychology, especially where it intersects with literary criticism and philosophy. 'pop psychology'? I dunno, I don't browse the Amazon bestsellers' list all that often. Might be more your forte.

What a shame life can't be boiled down to simply "dealing in facts". Oh, Hermes! Thou art unkind.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5577|London, England

Miggle wrote:

Jay wrote:

I understand that it's necessary to test people on the things they've read,
how do you figure?
How would you determine whether someone read the material or not if you didn't test them in some way?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6689

Jay wrote:

More power to 'em. I understand that it's necessary to test people on the things they've read, but I think English departments the world over jumped the shark at some point and took it to the OCD extreme.
You've been in one then? And know what they're up to? Ah, okay.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

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