Yeah never mind he completely misunderstood the concept, Scotland already has it's own Parliament so is about as decentralised as it's gonna get.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
What?Turquoise wrote:
Decentralization is a good thing when it comes to Europe.
Scotland becoming independent means it would likely become a part of Europe (see Ireland) rather than just a part of the UK like it is now.
Why are they calling it independence then? Joining the EU is the opposite of independence -- that's tying your fate to a larger collective.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
What?Turquoise wrote:
Decentralization is a good thing when it comes to Europe.
Scotland becoming independent means it would likely become a part of Europe (see Ireland) rather than just a part of the UK like it is now.
It's easy to misunderstand something when you guys use the wrong terminology. This sounds less like independence and more like a trivial shifting of officials.coke wrote:
Yeah never mind he completely misunderstood the concept, Scotland already has it's own Parliament so is about as decentralised as it's gonna get.
No, it really is independence.
Devolved govt, which is what they have now, is a trivial shifting of officials - or really a duplication of officials for no useful purpose.
They can then choose to 'join Europe', or re-join as they'd presumably have to re-enter after ceasing to be part of the UK.
But then it depends on what is meant by 'join Europe', if that means signing up to the Euro then that would be giving up independence.
So overall they'd be taking half a step forwards, a few backwards or sideways and some others in who knows what direction.
However you look at it its clear its not been thought through.
Devolved govt, which is what they have now, is a trivial shifting of officials - or really a duplication of officials for no useful purpose.
They can then choose to 'join Europe', or re-join as they'd presumably have to re-enter after ceasing to be part of the UK.
But then it depends on what is meant by 'join Europe', if that means signing up to the Euro then that would be giving up independence.
So overall they'd be taking half a step forwards, a few backwards or sideways and some others in who knows what direction.
However you look at it its clear its not been thought through.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-02-28 04:02:46)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Shouldn't it be "join the EU" rather than "join Europe"?
They'd already be a part of Europe, as they are now.
Or do people consider EU=Europe, even though not all European nations are part of the EU?
They'd already be a part of Europe, as they are now.
Or do people consider EU=Europe, even though not all European nations are part of the EU?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
All these terms are used interchangeably....
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6685
How is joining the EU giving up independence?
Superior Mind wrote:
How is joining the EU giving up independence?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6685
I thought it was just an economic union? Are the the nations of the EU not still independent/free to make their own laws?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
Member nations of the EU are now about as sovereign as US States.
Member nations of the EU are now about as sovereign as US States.
Last edited by Jay (2012-02-28 05:23:20)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Political Union if you're part of the EU, there are some EU states that still opt out of using the Euro.Superior Mind wrote:
I thought it was just an economic union? Are the the nations of the EU not still independent/free to make their own laws?
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6685
Interesting. So what's the point then? To prevent another pan-European war?
Well it all started after WW2 when le french are scared of another Germany invasion Started with the the European Coal and Steel Committee, where West Germany wanted some independence and France wants to make sure German coal and steel wasn't used in making tanks to invade France again. Then it started to branch out to Benelux.Superior Mind wrote:
Interesting. So what's the point then? To prevent another pan-European war?
also to give some of the countries more 'representation' (not really the word im looking for) at selling to the world and not to only their neighbours
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Also increases a lot of trade and mobility amongst EU citizens. Europe is a lot better under one giant free trade area, and its easier for foreign business' as well since its also a customs union.FatherTed wrote:
also to give some of the countries more 'representation' (not really the word im looking for) at selling to the world and not to only their neighbours
That seems rather...imprecise, given the complex nature of it all.Dilbert_X wrote:
All these terms are used interchangeably....
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
As a UK member, I can say that Dilbert is quite correct. Probably something to do with everybody talking cross purposes and not many having english as a first language.FEOS wrote:
That seems rather...imprecise, given the complex nature of it all.Dilbert_X wrote:
All these terms are used interchangeably....
The point about EU members being equivalent to states is really not very far from the truth. There is a bit more independence than that and you obviously dont get the centralized "President" of europe (yet).
My understanding is that the only reason the UK is involved is for trade purposes, we apparently get significant benefit from being a part of the EU (enough to cover our membership fee anyway) and this is part of the reason why Ireland (and potentially Scotland) are / will be EU members, they just dont have enough trading power on their own.
The Euro is a whole nother issue, im not 100% on it but if we were to join the euro then EU would set our interest rates, this is really bad for us because our economy is setup completely different to Germanys who are one of the controlling influences on the Euro.
Its all a bit of a rule by committee mess really, the UK is currently at the minimum commitment it can make while still receiving a return on our investment.
Our current involvement with EU is about the same as Scotlands involvement with us. In the same way that there is frequently a "the UK should leave the EU" movement there is desire for Scotland to be more self governing, however what it comes down to is economics, would Scotland really be better off?
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-02-28 12:37:07)
i think you euros have the idea of states twisted
Tu Stultus Es
Depends what you mean by 'the EU' to begin with:FEOS wrote:
That seems rather...imprecise, given the complex nature of it all.Dilbert_X wrote:
All these terms are used interchangeably....
- The common market
- Fiscal union
- The Euro
- Political union
I've given up with the detail or the permutations but 'the EU' or 'lets join Europe' means different things to different people.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
States have their own laws but these can be over ruled / replaced by laws which cover all of the USA. Same applies in the EU (European Union).eleven bravo wrote:
i think you euros have the idea of states twisted
Single currency for all states (Pretty much there now with the Euro).
One language despite what the majority of natives speak as a first language.
Easy trade between states despite their degree of independence.
Easy travel of both tourists and labour between states / members of the EU.
Im not saying they are the same but they are comparable.
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-02-29 10:53:27)
states are much closer to your counties than your nations
Tu Stultus Es
Exactly what I'm talking about.Dilbert_X wrote:
Depends what you mean by 'the EU' to begin with:FEOS wrote:
That seems rather...imprecise, given the complex nature of it all.Dilbert_X wrote:
All these terms are used interchangeably....
- The common market
- Fiscal union
- The Euro
- Political union
I've given up with the detail or the permutations but 'the EU' or 'lets join Europe' means different things to different people.
The Eurozone = fiscal union/common currency
The EU = Political/trading union
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Disagree.eleven bravo wrote:
states are much closer to your counties than your nations
We dont have elected officials to represent counties
We dont really have county laws (other than differing fines for dog poop and the like)
A county has no real autonomy at all, people do not see themselves as coming from a county anymore than from a town or village.
Please expand..
I would assume that depends on the country. In Ireland, counties seem to play a big part in identity. At least, that's what I've heard from speaking to many Irish people.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
Disagree.eleven bravo wrote:
states are much closer to your counties than your nations
We dont have elected officials to represent counties
We dont really have county laws (other than differing fines for dog poop and the like)
A county has no real autonomy at all, people do not see themselves as coming from a county anymore than from a town or village.
Please expand..
Back when I visited Dublin last year, I spoke with some locals about a major football tournament that was going on during the same week, and they were talking about how each county has its own team and how loyal people were about their local teams and such. From what they were saying, it sounded like this identity extended to political matters as well.
Ireland is a bit different to the UK. Something to do with verging on a civil war since forever. Whereas the rest of the uk has been unified under one government for a fair while now.
We dont have county sports teams, we have city teams. Our "members of parliament" do not represent counties but rather arbitrary strips of land that held equal numbers of people over 100 years ago.
Then of course there is the elephant in the room, that most american states are equal sizes to EU countries.
We dont have county sports teams, we have city teams. Our "members of parliament" do not represent counties but rather arbitrary strips of land that held equal numbers of people over 100 years ago.
Then of course there is the elephant in the room, that most american states are equal sizes to EU countries.
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2012-03-01 15:48:38)