Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5603|London, England

Jenspm wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


It's most prevalent in rural areas.  In urban areas, it's less pronounced, but people descended from the higher castes still have a lot more connections than most.

Also, there is a strong correlation between higher castes and wealth.
higher caste usually has a lot of moeny in the first place so... lol. its like no one cares about royalty anymore, but its all about money. who do you think also has a ton of cash =.=
Where do you have this from? Everything I have seen and read by Indian authors/journalists have suggested that the caste system is still extremely embedded into the Indian society - especially in rural areas, as Turq said, but also in larger cities.

Yes, there are now laws against caste-discrimination. Yes, money is important, and corruption is a major issue. But are you sure the idea of castes, blood and family are not still important in India?

I'm sorry, but I've never heard anyone seriously claim that no-one in India cares about castes anymore.
The only people who still adhere to the caste system are dalit. People that deal with trash and the like since trash is considered unclean. The other three castes intermingle and intermarry.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

Jay wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


higher caste usually has a lot of moeny in the first place so... lol. its like no one cares about royalty anymore, but its all about money. who do you think also has a ton of cash =.=
Where do you have this from? Everything I have seen and read by Indian authors/journalists have suggested that the caste system is still extremely embedded into the Indian society - especially in rural areas, as Turq said, but also in larger cities.

Yes, there are now laws against caste-discrimination. Yes, money is important, and corruption is a major issue. But are you sure the idea of castes, blood and family are not still important in India?

I'm sorry, but I've never heard anyone seriously claim that no-one in India cares about castes anymore.
The only people who still adhere to the caste system are dalit. People that deal with trash and the like since trash is considered unclean. The other three castes intermingle and intermarry.
I would assume a long history of culturally enforced aristocracy still has a major influence on daily life and media there.

It would be kind of hard for it not to.  Look at societies where the castes were less strictly observed but were then removed, and yet, divisions and inequity remain.

Japan is still very aristocratic in its divisions, for example.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5603|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jenspm wrote:


Where do you have this from? Everything I have seen and read by Indian authors/journalists have suggested that the caste system is still extremely embedded into the Indian society - especially in rural areas, as Turq said, but also in larger cities.

Yes, there are now laws against caste-discrimination. Yes, money is important, and corruption is a major issue. But are you sure the idea of castes, blood and family are not still important in India?

I'm sorry, but I've never heard anyone seriously claim that no-one in India cares about castes anymore.
The only people who still adhere to the caste system are dalit. People that deal with trash and the like since trash is considered unclean. The other three castes intermingle and intermarry.
I would assume a long history of culturally enforced aristocracy still has a major influence on daily life and media there.

It would be kind of hard for it not to.  Look at societies where the castes were less strictly observed but were then removed, and yet, divisions and inequity remain.

Japan is still very aristocratic in its divisions, for example.
I've never been to India, let alone lived inside their society, so I won't claim to understand them. But, this article popped into my feed today and it's wholly relevant:

The Tragic Truth About India's Caste System
Untouchables cling to it because they have few other choices.

Shikha Dalmia | January 24, 2012

My American friends frequently ask me why India’s caste system, a pre-feudalistic division of labor that assigns one’s line of work at birth, has persisted into the 21st century in defiance of every civilized notion of justice and equality. I thought I knew the answer: The need of the privileged upper castes for cheap labor to do their dirty work. But there is an even more tragic explanation that I discovered during a recent visit to New Delhi while talking to Maya, the dalit or untouchable—the lowest of the four castes—who has serviced my family for 35 years. Maya herself clings to her caste because it offers her the best possible life, even in modern India.

The puzzling thing about the caste system is that it has endured without any legal force backing it. Unlike slavery, under which whites actively relied on authorities to maintain their slave holdings, the caste system is an informal, self-perpetuating institution that has resisted half-a-century worth of (ham-handed) government efforts to eradicate it.

How? Consider Maya’s story.

Maya assigned herself to our house in a small, gated community in West Delhi in 1977. We had no choice in the matter. If we wanted our trash picked, bathrooms scrubbed, and yards cleaned, Maya was it. Indians find dealing with other people’s refuse not just unpleasant, but polluting. Hence only dalits, whose caste impels them to do this work, are willing to do it, something that both stigmatizes them and gives them a stranglehold on the market. And they have transformed this stranglehold into an ironclad cartel that closes the door on all alternatives for their customers.

When Maya got married at the age of 16, her father-in-law paid another dalit $20 for her wedding gift:  the “rights” to service 10 houses in our neighborhood, including ours. Maya has no formal deed to these “rights” and no court would ever enforce them. Yet they are more inviolable than holy writ. Maya’s fellow dalits, who own the “rights” to other houses, can’t work in hers, just as she can’t work in theirs.

Doing so, Maya insists, would be tantamount to theft that would invite a well-deserved beating and ostracism by the dalit community. No one would lift a finger to help a “poacher” in distress or attend her family functions like births, weddings, or funerals. She would become a pariah among pariahs.

This arrangement has given Maya a guaranteed monthly income of about $100 that, along with her husband’s job as a “gofer” at a government lab, has helped her raise three children and build a modest house with a private bathroom, a prized feature among India’s poor, in one of New Delhi’s slums. But Maya’s monopoly doesn’t give her just money. It also hands her— and her fellow jamadarnis or sweepers— clout to resist the upper caste power structure, not always for noble reasons.

None of Maya’s 10 employers dare challenge her work. Maya takes more days off for funerals every year than there are members in her extended family. Complaining, however, is not only pointless but perilous. It would result in stinking piles of garbage outside the complainer’s home for days. Every time my mother, a stickler for spotlessness, has gotten into spats with Maya over her sketchy scrubbing habits, she has lost. One harsh word, and Maya simply boycotts our house until my mother goes, head hanging, to cajole her back. Nor is Maya the only jamadarni with an attitude. Nearly all of Delhi is carved up among Maya-style sweeper cartels and it is a rare house whose jamadarni is not a “big problem.”

But Maya’s clout comes at a huge personal price: It shuts the door on inter-caste acceptability. Segregation has loosened considerably among the first three castes. Intermingling and intermarriage, even among the highest brahmin and the relatively lower baniya (business) castes, is now common, especially in cities.

But dalits are allowed to socialize normally with other castes only if they give up trash-related work, although marriage remains taboo regardless. Otherwise, they are regarded as polluted and every interaction with upper caste folks becomes subject to an apartheid-like code.

Some of the homes where Maya works, for example, have separate entrances that allow her to access their bathrooms and collect their trash without having to set foot in the main house. Although the families have formed a genuine bond with her and treat her generously, plying her with lavish gifts on festivals, there are limits. They give her breakfast and lunch everyday, but in separate dishes reserved just for her. Sitting at their table and sharing a meal is out of the question. Not even my mother’s driver who, though poorer than Maya, belongs to a higher caste (higher than my family’s), would visit her home and accept a glass of water.

Maya is resigned to such discrimination, but not her oldest son, 36. He holds a government job and works as a sales representative for an Amway-style company and dreams big. He is embarrassed by his mother and often lies about her work to his customers for fear of being shunned. He claims he makes enough money to support Maya and wants her to quit, but she will have none of it. She fears destitution and poverty more, she says, than she craves social respectability. Her caste might be her shame, but it is also her safety net.

But the choice may not be hers much longer.

Upon retirement, she had planned to either pass her “business” to her children or sell it to another dalit for about $1,000. But about six months ago, local municipal authorities started dispatching vans, Western-style, to pick up trash from neighborhoods—the one service that had protected Maya from obsolescence in an age of sophisticated home-cleaning gadgetry.

Maya and her fellow dalits held demonstrations outside the municipal commissioner’s office to stop the vans. The commissioner finally agreed to a compromise that lets Maya and her pals collect trash from individual homes and deposit it at one central spot from where the vans take it for disposal. But Maya realizes that this is a stopgap measure that won’t last. “I got branded as polluted and became unfit for other jobs, for what?” she wept. “To build a business that has now turned to dust?”

Despite the financial loss, her son is pleased. He believes that this will finally force his siblings to develop skills for more respectable work instead of taking the easy way out and joining their mother. But Maya shakes her head at such bravado.

And she might be right. To be sure, post-liberalization, India has allowed the most dogged and determined dalits to escape their caste-assigned destiny, even creating the phenomenon of dalit millionaires. But for the vast majority, as Maya says, opportunities are better within the caste system than outside it.

When that changes, the system will die, but not until then.
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/24/t … singlepage

We're way off topic though. This thread is about Norway, not India.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina
It sounds like India is even more fucked than I assumed.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5603|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

It sounds like India is even more fucked than I assumed.
but its not relevant. Google this story and you'll get hundreds of non-india media hits
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

Jay wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

It sounds like India is even more fucked than I assumed.
but its not relevant. Google this story and you'll get hundreds of non-india media hits
Perhaps so, but it's just hard to believe that all of the reasons for state action are in this story.

I know Europe leans in the nanny state direction, but they're not usually this far that way.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5603|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Jay wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

It sounds like India is even more fucked than I assumed.
but its not relevant. Google this story and you'll get hundreds of non-india media hits
Perhaps so, but it's just hard to believe that all of the reasons for state action are in this story.

I know Europe leans in the nanny state direction, but they're not usually this far that way.
They're usually dealing with a population that expects and accepts a certain amount of interference so I doubt it's ever even mentioned in their own media.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
jord
Member
+2,382|6923|The North, beyond the wall.

Jay wrote:

They're usually dealing with a population that expects and accepts a certain amount of interference so I doubt it's ever even mentioned in their own media.
That goes for your own population. It's just different shades of grey, ours happens to be a slightly darker one at the minute.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

jord wrote:

Jay wrote:

They're usually dealing with a population that expects and accepts a certain amount of interference so I doubt it's ever even mentioned in their own media.
That goes for your own population. It's just different shades of grey, ours happens to be a slightly darker one at the minute.
Pretty much...  We put up with some pretty crazy stuff at airports.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5946|College Park, MD

Macbeth wrote:

I had to play the role of Seyton. Had like two lines.
I did the thunder sound effects in the first scene. Wasn't a school play though, just reading it in our English class.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6350|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Varegg wrote:

All that has surfaced so far is the parents side of the story.

Enough said for the time being!

As a sidenote ... what jenspm mentioned is highly relevant to how this case is being treated and what attention it gets in India.
No, it's a deflection. Why it's popular is irrelevant.
It is relevant, Indians are very quick to shout racism, and their media blows anything with a conceivably racist angle out of all proportion.
They're usually dealing with a population that expects and accepts a certain amount of interference so I doubt it's ever even mentioned in their own media.
Yawn.... land of the free....liberal socialists hate freedom....keep it up

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-01-25 01:04:07)

Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6919|Canberra, AUS

Turquoise wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Spark wrote:

That only makes me more inclined to believe that this is a beatup given what I know about the Indian media tbh.
You're saying that in light of some issues that occurred here about 6 months ago, yeah?
Out of curiosity, what happened in Australia that you're referring to?
There was a series of attacks on Indian students, some of which were racially motivated, some of them weren't, they were just random assaults on people who happened to be Indian students.

But fuck me, the way the Indian media reacted you'd have thought we'd issued threats of war or something. There was no way it should have been anything but a minor passing incident, but instead it became a long running serious thing requiring constant high-level diplomatic intervention by heads of state/foreign ministers. It was absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole other series of absolutely absurd overreactions and the like the Indian media have been guilty of, mostly related to events surrounding this./

Last edited by Spark (2012-01-25 03:47:59)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

Spark wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

You're saying that in light of some issues that occurred here about 6 months ago, yeah?
Out of curiosity, what happened in Australia that you're referring to?
There was a series of attacks on Indian students, some of which were racially motivated, some of them weren't, they were just random assaults on people who happened to be Indian students.

But fuck me, the way the Indian media reacted you'd have thought we'd issued threats of war or something. There was no way it should have been anything but a minor passing incident, but instead it became a long running serious thing requiring constant high-level diplomatic intervention by heads of state/foreign ministers. It was absolutely ridiculous.

There's a whole other series of absolutely absurd overreactions and the like the Indian media have been guilty of, mostly related to events surrounding this./
*shrugs* It sounds like Indian news media is just as shitty as Bollywood.

Maybe you guys should tell India to fuck off.  It seems like South Asia blows in general.

Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-25 07:43:35)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6919|Canberra, AUS
Huge trading partner, big big source of skilled workers in a time where we're suffering a severe and worsening skills shortage... not much we can do. They're OK, really, it's just their media which is shit.

(and their cricket team lol)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6350|eXtreme to the maX
Its off-topic but I wouldn't say Australia truly has a skills shortage.

Australian companies suffer from poor management and a lack of interest in medium-term planning or investment.

"ZOMG we have a shortage of employees with 2-5 years experience and we've got all these projects which have been in planning for 5 years and no-one to do them."

Thats not a skills shortage, thats shit management.
Fuck Israel
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6745|so randum
keeping with this o/t, why are there so many adverts for people to come in and work roads/farming/mining for 6 months or so?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

FatherTed wrote:

keeping with this o/t, why are there so many adverts for people to come in and work roads/farming/mining for 6 months or so?
Cheap labor.  Big business eats that stuff up, regardless of the consequences.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6350|eXtreme to the maX
Cheap labour, no long term rights for the individuals or obligations for the companies - its win-win....

Basically its cheaper to lobby the govt to let in temporary workers than it is to employ and develop locals.
It also removes the need for businesses to plan further than a year or so ahead.
Fuck Israel
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6961

FatherTed wrote:

keeping with this o/t, why are there so many adverts for people to come in and work roads/farming/mining for 6 months or so?
Companies don't have to pay in for their benefits and its easier to keep the wages down since working holidays are granted for 6 months to a year.
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