No one cares about him on a personal level, feos, he's just a symbol. You're taking a lowigesque stance here.
would it be ironic if i said "Those goddam broncos won again" ?
fuckers.
They should've never traded Jay Cutler
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
I think the people who are going after him rather than the evangelicals who are their actual target are.
People are saying, "Those evangelicals are nuts for thinking God is working through Tebow--let's make fun of Tebow because the evangelicals have crazy ideas instead of making fun of the evangelicals for having crazy ideas! Yeah! That'll show those evangelicals!"
Okay, a few points here.
1.
Feos there are no "facts" here you are not understanding. Yes, people are making fun of him because of his relation to the evangelical establishment, and yes, that relationship originates from the establishment. But it goes deeper than that.
2.
me wrote:
athlete/celebrity/sports worship
As someone who used to be into sports waaaaaaaaay too much, and then woke up and realized how trivial it truly is, I believe absolutely this athlete/celebrity/sports complex exists. Just look at Kim Kardashian marrying an NBA player. Or Plaxico Burress shooting himself in the leg at a night club. People already worship and celebrities for the sake of their celebrity, (Jersey Shore). I think we can all agree that this new pop-culture phenomena is kinda bizarre (and unhealthy for society), and probably originated, or is a symptom of, the 24/7 news cycle/mass media cable machine.
With that in mind, hear me when I say that all public figures, from celebrities, to music artists, to hollywood, to business people, to politicians, NONE OF THEM ARE OFF LIMITS. You know how many Apple jokes there were after Steve Jobs died? He was a businessman, for christs sake. So this absolutely applies to sports as well.
What the controversy is about is that the (right wing) Christians are saying "no, this guy is off limits". When he absolutely is NOT, both as a talented football player and as a public figure. It is this kind of pesudo-Nazi like victimization card that is played constantly by the right wing, the idea that Christians are a persecuted minority in this country when the situation is the exact opposite, and that Tebow should be off limits for comedians/etc. because he wears his religion on his sleeve/face, as Ty says.
Is he saying any of the stuff himself? No. But you seem to be offended/uncomfortable with people singling out and poking fun at a celebrity, a historically talented football player, and a guy who made an anti-abortion ad for the super bowl, and who is saving himself for marriage. You seem to think he is off limits. Me? I could care less, but no public figure, including celebrities and sports players, is off limits.
Now the guy who said we deserved the 9/11 attacks because of our freedom and liberty and failure to believe in his version of god, got away with it, and has millions of followers is also pretending that he has to "stand up" for Tebow, as if he is being persecuted. THAT is what is scary. If the right wing/evangelicals were not playing the victim card, as they do 24/7, this thread probably wouldn't need to exist.
3. The statistics of evangelical divorce cause most of us secularists to see this as hilarious, bizarre, off-putting, etc. It was Tebows choice to tell the world he was saving himself. The fact that someone like you, is taking his "persecution" seriously, is strange/revealing.
4. One more point, this time directed to Kmar. Your post about the kneeling/prayer illustrate my point beautifully. There is no controversy when they do it with humility and keep it to themselves. As in, no one cares about the pictures you posted, in the sense that its not controversial whatsoever To take it off the field, "speak the gospel" (with political implications), and take it back on the field, well, then it becomes something else.
The images I posted are called "prayer circles". There is no hiding what they are doing.. Tebow is certainly an easy target for anyone with some sort of religious angst. I don't personally have anything against it, so I don't really have an urge to make fun of him. He has a close connection with his faith (big deal). If he's not violating any rules I simply say let the man live his life.
I'm more impressed with his ability to win than his Tebowing. I have no doubt that if we completely removed the religious aspect we'd still be talking about him. Now, having said that, I think there is a large group of not-really-football-fans bringing his religion to the forefront. Championing his faith as a reason for his success. That isn't necessarily something to hold against Tebow though.
Well, that's precisely why there's so much backlash.
Exactly. Pay attention to that last sentence and then reference the thread title.
4. One more point, this time directed to Kmar. Your post about the kneeling/prayer illustrate my point beautifully. There is no controversy when they do it with humility and keep it to themselves. As in, no one cares about the pictures you posted, in the sense that its not controversial whatsoever To take it off the field, "speak the gospel" (with political implications), and take it back on the field, well, then it becomes something else.
There's no controvery really when its done as a group I think. It easier to attack someone when they've been singled out. I've also seen plenty of other players, including other pro sports make religious gestures.. sign of the cross, taking a knee after a score, pointing to the heavens. Again, I think tebow gets more attention because of all the bandwagoners.
Phil Hendrie wrote:
All praise to Tebow. The kid's good. And speaking as a very non-religious type person, back off his religion, all you "tolerant" people…
Spear, I think you're very, very confused about my position here:
1. I'm not defending evangelicals in any way, shape, form, or fashion. You need to understand that clearly and distinctly. If people want to make fun of evangelicals, that is perfectly fine. I think I've made that exceedingly clear.
2. People aren't making fun of evangelicals. They are making fun of a football player that evangelicals like, simply because evangelicals like him and they don't like evangelicals. It is misplaced ire. Can in point: you post a video clip of Pat Robertson as an example of why it's OK for people to hate on Tim Tebow--shouldn't that instead be an example of why people should hate on Pat Robertson?
3. I never--not once--said he is off limits, did I? I simply do not understand the hate being spewed at the guy when he (as Kmar has pointed out, as well) simply does what so many other players do. He kneels and prays at various times in the game. There are literally dozens of other players who, when they make touchdowns, or during critical points in the game, take a knee and say a prayer. Nobody says shit. Are those guys off limits then? Why the double standard? It's because the evangelicals have latched on to Tebow, and people don't like evangelicals--I get that. My point is, direct your anger/spite at the actual source of your anger/spite (the evangelicals supporting Tebow), rather than this guy who is doing not one thing different than any of dozens of other football players out there today.
Personally, I couldn't care less about Tebow. Didn't really like the guy that much when he was at UF, and I'm not a Broncos fan. I think he seems to be a very talented, truly nice, non-hypocritical guy. That's refreshing. But all of this is just noise to me. My issue is with the nonsensical position people are taking vis a vis Tebow, on both sides. Just let the guy play football, ffs.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” ― Albert Einstein Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spear, I think you're very, very confused about my position here:
1. I'm not defending evangelicals in any way, shape, form, or fashion. You need to understand that clearly and distinctly. If people want to make fun of evangelicals, that is perfectly fine. I think I've made that exceedingly clear.
2. People aren't making fun of evangelicals. They are making fun of a football player that evangelicals like, simply because evangelicals like him and they don't like evangelicals. It is misplaced ire. Can in point: you post a video clip of Pat Robertson as an example of why it's OK for people to hate on Tim Tebow--shouldn't that instead be an example of why people should hate on Pat Robertson?
3. I never--not once--said he is off limits, did I? I simply do not understand the hate being spewed at the guy when he (as Kmar has pointed out, as well) simply does what so many other players do. He kneels and prays at various times in the game. There are literally dozens of other players who, when they make touchdowns, or during critical points in the game, take a knee and say a prayer. Nobody says shit. Are those guys off limits then? Why the double standard? It's because the evangelicals have latched on to Tebow, and people don't like evangelicals--I get that. My point is, direct your anger/spite at the actual source of your anger/spite (the evangelicals supporting Tebow), rather than this guy who is doing not one thing different than any of dozens of other football players out there today.
Personally, I couldn't care less about Tebow. Didn't really like the guy that much when he was at UF, and I'm not a Broncos fan. I think he seems to be a very talented, truly nice, non-hypocritical guy. That's refreshing. But all of this is just noise to me. My issue is with the nonsensical position people are taking vis a vis Tebow, on both sides. Just let the guy play football, ffs.
He inserted himself into national politics.
Last edited by Jay (2012-01-10 05:22:24)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
One commercial. How long ago was that? It aired how many times? Had he even been drafted yet?
Seriously. You never see that unless you watch the damn thing on Youtube.
Strawman.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” ― Albert Einstein Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
One commercial. How long ago was that? It aired how many times? Had he even been drafted yet?
Seriously. You never see that unless you watch the damn thing on Youtube.
Strawman.
It aired during the Super Bowl and was seen by half the country.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
There's no controvery really when its done as a group I think. It easier to attack someone when they've been singled out. I've also seen plenty of other players, including other pro sports make religious gestures.. sign of the cross, taking a knee after a score, pointing to the heavens. Again, I think tebow gets more attention because of all the bandwagoners.
Phil Hendrie wrote:
All praise to Tebow. The kid's good. And speaking as a very non-religious type person, back off his religion, all you "tolerant" people…
My sentiments exactly.
Uh.... Kmar, I feel like you are kind of going around in circles here. You just proved my point. It is not his religion that is controversial, its the fact that he is arrogant and smug about it. Wearing "John 3:16" on his face and making an anti-abortion Super Bowl ad.
If he were doing it IN HIS SPARE TIME, it would not be nearly as arrogant and smug. But, he is using his media attention/profession as a pedestal to preach to the rest of us. Its not the same as other players doing a cross on their chest. He absolutely IS, "in your face" about his religion.
You guys are pretty ignorant if you honestly feel a Muslim player would be able to write the word "Koran" on his face and make a super bowl ad about freeing Gitmo detainees or making an anti-war ad. There would be an outrage. And something like that, to someone like myself, would be no different than what Tebow is doing... and it would be just as arrogant and smug.
Muslims cannot even have a trashy reality show without getting ads pulled/causing an controversy. Stop pretending that bigotry is not just as significant as it was 100 years ago.
There's no controvery really when its done as a group I think. It easier to attack someone when they've been singled out. I've also seen plenty of other players, including other pro sports make religious gestures.. sign of the cross, taking a knee after a score, pointing to the heavens. Again, I think tebow gets more attention because of all the bandwagoners.
Phil Hendrie wrote:
All praise to Tebow. The kid's good. And speaking as a very non-religious type person, back off his religion, all you "tolerant" people…
My sentiments exactly.
Uh.... Kmar, I feel like you are kind of going around in circles here. You just proved my point. It is not his religion that is controversial, its the fact that he is arrogant and smug about it. Wearing "John 3:16" on his face and making an anti-abortion Super Bowl ad.
If he were doing it IN HIS SPARE TIME, it would not be nearly as arrogant and smug. But, he is using his media attention/profession as a pedestal to preach to the rest of us. Its not the same as other players doing a cross on their chest. He absolutely IS, "in your face" about his religion.
You guys are pretty ignorant if you honestly feel a Muslim player would be able to write the word "Koran" on his face and make a super bowl ad about freeing Gitmo detainees or making an anti-war ad. There would be an outrage. And something like that, to someone like myself, would be no different than what Tebow is doing... and it would be just as arrogant and smug.
Muslims cannot even have a trashy reality show without getting ads pulled/causing an controversy. Stop pretending that bigotry is not just as significant as it was 100 years ago.
My point was that in the big picture it's not really that "controversial" .. and when it does become a big deal (ie gets attention) it's because of the people around him, namely the media and his supporters making it so.
Stop pretending that bigotry is not just as significant as it was 100 years ago
I really don't know where you're getting that idea from. In fact, this whole blown-out-of-proportion controversy seems to have stemmed from a lack of tolerance problem in the first place. No where did I insinuate, or even suggest that it would not be worse if it were an outspoken Muslim player. You are creating an opposing view that does not exist, really. If you're going to judge my intelligence, at least get my position straight.
Well like I do a lot of times when speaking to you, Kmar, I sometimes confuse you/your opinions for others. They can be hard to keep track of, especially when there are multiple pages of argument. I apologize, I may have been directing that comment more to Feos or whoever made comments about Muslim sports players a few page back.
One commercial. How long ago was that? It aired how many times? Had he even been drafted yet?
Seriously. You never see that unless you watch the damn thing on Youtube.
Strawman.
It aired during the Super Bowl and was seen by half the country.
Why aren't you making fun of his mom?
She was in the single ad that aired one time two-odd years ago that can't be seen unless you dig it up from Youtube. She inserted herself into national politics by doing that. She wasn't an NFL player at the time, either.
And the abortion debate is just raging, isn't it? Hot topic every single day since then, with Tebow's (and his mom's apparently) associated with it...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” ― Albert Einstein Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Muslims cannot even have a trashy reality show without getting ads pulled/causing an controversy. Stop pretending that bigotry is not just as significant as it was 100 years ago.
And that instance exemplifies my point as to why there wouldn't be haters of this degree on a Muslim/Jewish player doing the same thing. The backlash against those showing the hate towards them would be extreme, with overtones of racism directed at those mocking the player.
There is no real backlash at the media, other than some evangelicals going, "Hey guys, quit picking on us."
If you think the other situation would be of even remotely the same magnitude, you're deluding yourself. There would be 20/20 specials about "Tolerance in America" and all other sorts of "national soul searching" based on the national debate the other situation would cause. This has only caused the Tebow haters to tell the evangelicals to just suck it up, because they're weird extremists.
Now, I don't think any of the above is right. But it's reality.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” ― Albert Einstein Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
