FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

Remove democracy and replace it with government in generic terms and you might have a more valid argument. To focus it on democracy--and the implied exclusion of other governmental models--is fallacious.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6766|Moscow, Russia
no. government is a very broad term. while i would agree that what i posted applies, to various degree, to most forms of government, democracy is affected by that stuff the most - imo, to the breaking point. modern representative democracy have completely devolved from actually being a form of government into a mere instrument of putting the desired person in certain place of responsibility.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-12-31 00:55:21)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:


actually, feos' opinion is as fine as any other. what i meant was that thing we are used to call "modern democracy" goes disregarding any and all opinions save those who bought themselves some politicians.
And how do you figure that?
easy. modern democracy is operated using modern information and public opinion manipulation tools. those, who control those tools, control the democracy. in the environment like this, politicians have no choice but to prostitute themselves, while opinions - actual educated opinions - don't mean shit, because opinion of the majority is easily manufactured.
As cynical as this sounds, you're largely correct. The platforms of the two major American parties are illogical if you really look at them, and most Americans recognize this on some level which is why they complain about being unrepresented (the majority feel this way). How did this come to pass and why is there so much inertia? The media, especially on the right. If your opinion deviates from the proscribed party platform they will try to crush you. If the neo-cons in the Murdoch media machine don't think you are sufficiently warlike, they will attempt to crush you by marginalizing you.

In my thirty years, I've never seen an election as manipulated by the media as this one.

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/51395/chart.jpeg

Every time Fox & Friends latch onto the next not-Romney-or-Paul candidate, the candidates poll numbers shoot up sky high. First it was Bachmann, then it was Perry, then it was Cain, and now it's Gingrich (who is thankfully fading right on cue).

You're right that educated opinions don't mean shit, especially when faced by the mob, but don't make the mistake of believing that if they somehow were in control that everything would be better. That very idea is the foundation of our government. It's why we have Senators and Representatives in our legislature instead of Direct Democracy. They're supposed to be the educated and rational check against the whims of the mob. Instead, they spend all their time as if they are on a Hollywood set acting in a drama.

It doesn't matter what the form of government is, power corrupts those that possess it, and acts as a talisman for those that wish to feel important and dominant. There can never be anything like an enlightened despotism, the very term is an oxymoron.

The only real solution is the one that has been practiced countless times in human history: revolution when the government size eventually becomes unbearable and the boot stamping feels like forever. For all the talk of decreasing the size of government that has become popular among the right wing in America, it's an impossible folly to believe that it will ever happen. Government never does anything but expand its power. It's its very nature to do so. All you as a human can do is complain about that expansion, delay it, and eventually topple it. Even the Greeks with their very real debt crisis will not, in the end, reduce the size of their government to any real sustainable level. The only people that have managed to do so in recent times are the weirdo Canadians.

So yeah, we're fucked, but at least we have good music:

NoFX wrote:

There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
Political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
Sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

What are we left with?
A nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
Who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
Pass on traditions
How to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

The idiots are taking over
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

You two do realize there are more democracies in the world than America, right?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

FEOS wrote:

You two do realize there are more democracies in the world than America, right?
It doesn't matter. All governments collapse under their own weight when they get as big as ours is. There's some magic number for the number of people governed by a tiny elite before the peoples opinions don't matter and it all goes poof. I'm talking about the government here, but even moreso, I'm talking about the media that controls all information and functions as nothing more than opinion maker. A handful of men in Murdoch's media empire control the overall message. They say "jump", and millions of American citizens say "how high?". Those who control the information are the power brokers.

James Madison wrote:

A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both.
If you understand the fundamentals of Greek Tragedy, you'll know that they tell the stories of great men brought low through flaws in their character. 

Now, I'm not saying we're near revolution, I don't have a scrying ball, but between the Tea Party and OWS, the anger is there. Will it probably go away after the economy picks back up? Probably. People will retreat back to the bliss of their walled gardens and the government will go on expanding until the next economic crisis makes it front page news again.


I went after Fox a lot in this post, but the same goes for the other side with MSNBC, HuffPo, NYT, etc. They just make more difficult targets because they lack the monopoly Murdoch possesses.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

They may lack the business monopoly, but they have a de facto ideological monopoly, in that they are all pretty much aligned. And none of them are concerned about being "the fourth estate" any longer. They are all in bed with politicians--who aren't concerned with governing, but with maintaining power.

And it isn't unique to the US. See the Arab Spring, Putin and Co., discontent in Europe... Granted, those aren't all democracies--not by a long shot--but they all have similar symptoms of poor governance and fed-up populaces.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

FEOS wrote:

They may lack the business monopoly, but they have a de facto ideological monopoly, in that they are all pretty much aligned. And none of them are concerned about being "the fourth estate" any longer. They are all in bed with politicians--who aren't concerned with governing, but with maintaining power.

And it isn't unique to the US. See the Arab Spring, Putin and Co., discontent in Europe... Granted, those aren't all democracies--not by a long shot--but they all have similar symptoms of poor governance and fed-up populaces.
I never said it was unique to the US, the US is just the nation that I obviously know the most about
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

They may lack the business monopoly, but they have a de facto ideological monopoly, in that they are all pretty much aligned. And none of them are concerned about being "the fourth estate" any longer. They are all in bed with politicians--who aren't concerned with governing, but with maintaining power.

And it isn't unique to the US. See the Arab Spring, Putin and Co., discontent in Europe... Granted, those aren't all democracies--not by a long shot--but they all have similar symptoms of poor governance and fed-up populaces.
I never said it was unique to the US, the US is just the nation that I obviously know the most about
Right. But that's the point I was making to Shahter.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

They may lack the business monopoly, but they have a de facto ideological monopoly, in that they are all pretty much aligned. And none of them are concerned about being "the fourth estate" any longer. They are all in bed with politicians--who aren't concerned with governing, but with maintaining power.

And it isn't unique to the US. See the Arab Spring, Putin and Co., discontent in Europe... Granted, those aren't all democracies--not by a long shot--but they all have similar symptoms of poor governance and fed-up populaces.
I never said it was unique to the US, the US is just the nation that I obviously know the most about
Right. But that's the point I was making to Shahter.
His country is even worse off than ours is, but he likes the result so it bothers him less
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:


I never said it was unique to the US, the US is just the nation that I obviously know the most about
Right. But that's the point I was making to Shahter.
His country is even worse off than ours is, but he likes the result so it bothers him less
See immediately following "Arab Spring" above.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5249|foggy bottom
that arab spring label is a joke.  syria is still gone to shit.  egypt is becoming exactly like i thought it would.  libya was just a little economic stability for the french and italians.  yemen is still gone to shit and nobody gives a fuck about tunisia

Last edited by eleven bravo (2011-12-31 09:29:29)

Tu Stultus Es
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5689

eleven bravo wrote:

that arab spring label is a joke.  syria is still gone to shit.  egypt is becoming exactly like i thought it would.  libya was just a little economic stability for the french and italians.  yemen is still gone to shit and nobody gives a fuck about tunisia
^^^
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6766|Moscow, Russia
@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.

it's 23:50 here. let me wish you happy new year. i'm off to get myself a nice big bowl of russian salad.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

eleven bravo wrote:

that arab spring label is a joke.  syria is still gone to shit.  egypt is becoming exactly like i thought it would.  libya was just a little economic stability for the french and italians.  yemen is still gone to shit and nobody gives a fuck about tunisia
Appropriateness of the label has nothing to do with the internals of he situation and the applicability to the argument.

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.
Since we were talking largely about America, not sure how you came to that conclusion. Any discussion of the countries mentioned outside of Russia by you would consist of what you read in a book, so again: not sure what you're on about.

And Happy New Year to you, as well.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
HudsonFalcon
Member
+20|5922|New York

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.

it's 23:50 here. let me wish you happy new year. i'm off to get myself a nice big bowl of russian salad.
We're a Democratic Republic not a Democracy first off, and second you're confusing Democracy with Communism if you think freedom is a brainwashing schtick.  Frankly I feel sorry for you.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6707

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.

it's 23:50 here. let me wish you happy new year. i'm off to get myself a nice big bowl of russian salad.
We're a Democratic Republic not a Democracy first off, and second you're confusing Democracy with Communism if you think freedom is a brainwashing schtick.  Frankly I feel sorry for you.
explain the difference between democratic republic and democracy plox
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
HudsonFalcon
Member
+20|5922|New York

Cybargs wrote:

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.

it's 23:50 here. let me wish you happy new year. i'm off to get myself a nice big bowl of russian salad.
We're a Democratic Republic not a Democracy first off, and second you're confusing Democracy with Communism if you think freedom is a brainwashing schtick.  Frankly I feel sorry for you.
explain the difference between democratic republic and democracy plox
In a Democracy an individuals rights can be trampled for the greater good, in a Democratic Republic they cannot.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5576

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

HudsonFalcon wrote:


We're a Democratic Republic not a Democracy first off, and second you're confusing Democracy with Communism if you think freedom is a brainwashing schtick.  Frankly I feel sorry for you.
explain the difference between democratic republic and democracy plox
In a Democracy an individuals rights can be trampled for the greater good, in a Democratic Republic they cannot.
...

wat
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5689
hahahahaha.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

HudsonFalcon wrote:


We're a Democratic Republic not a Democracy first off, and second you're confusing Democracy with Communism if you think freedom is a brainwashing schtick.  Frankly I feel sorry for you.
explain the difference between democratic republic and democracy plox
In a Democracy an individuals rights can be trampled for the greater good, in a Democratic Republic they cannot.
Funny, because individual rights get trampled every day here.

Democracy usually refers to either direct democracy, where everyone votes on everything town hall style, or representative democracy, where we hire people to represent us. Representative Democracy is a term coined by James Madison and is the word used to describe America's Republican form of government.

Representative Democracy = Republic = United States Government
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
HudsonFalcon
Member
+20|5922|New York

Jay wrote:

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


explain the difference between democratic republic and democracy plox
In a Democracy an individuals rights can be trampled for the greater good, in a Democratic Republic they cannot.
Funny, because individual rights get trampled every day here.

Democracy usually refers to either direct democracy, where everyone votes on everything town hall style, or representative democracy, where we hire people to represent us. Representative Democracy is a term coined by James Madison and is the word used to describe America's Republican form of government.

Representative Democracy = Republic = United States Government
Obviously the definition, much like our government, is flawed.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5348|London, England

HudsonFalcon wrote:

Jay wrote:

HudsonFalcon wrote:


In a Democracy an individuals rights can be trampled for the greater good, in a Democratic Republic they cannot.
Funny, because individual rights get trampled every day here.

Democracy usually refers to either direct democracy, where everyone votes on everything town hall style, or representative democracy, where we hire people to represent us. Representative Democracy is a term coined by James Madison and is the word used to describe America's Republican form of government.

Representative Democracy = Republic = United States Government
Obviously the definition, much like our government, is flawed.
You were thinking of Direct Democracy, which is indeed nothing more than mob rule.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6766|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.
Since we were talking largely about America, not sure how you came to that conclusion. Any discussion of the countries mentioned outside of Russia by you would consist of what you read in a book, so again: not sure what you're on about.
i was talking about democracy. i repeat - democracy. not a nation. and it is relevant to this discussion because it was supposed to be about media and their ways, which is the main instrument of modern democracy. it was you who started talking about america and russia. also g@lt with his "it's impossible, because by textbooks say it's impossible".

i shouldn't probably have addressed you both at the same time, that's right, but ffs, read the posts you reply to.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6096|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

In my thirty years, I've never seen an election as manipulated by the media as this one.
And its not as if you were thinking for most of them.

The sooner Murdoch dies the better, although that might mean the Chinese would then control Fox.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6401|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

@feos & g@lt: you are again speaking about stuff you only read about in a book. to hell with usa, i wasn't talking about any nation in particular. this stuff you call "democracy and freedom" is nothing more than a brainwashing schtick, and as long as you try to build your society around that shit you'll be fucked again and again. oh, others will be fucked in your name too.
Since we were talking largely about America, not sure how you came to that conclusion. Any discussion of the countries mentioned outside of Russia by you would consist of what you read in a book, so again: not sure what you're on about.
i was talking about democracy. i repeat - democracy. not a nation. and it is relevant to this discussion because it was supposed to be about media and their ways, which is the main instrument of modern democracy. it was you who started talking about america and russia. also g@lt with his "it's impossible, because by textbooks say it's impossible".

i shouldn't probably have addressed you both at the same time, that's right, but ffs, read the posts you reply to.
Well, then. If you were talking about democracy--and only about democracy--then your post makes no sense (see highlighted portion). It would be you who would be talking about something you had only read about it a book at that point.

But interesting discussion.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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