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2011-12-30 10:20:14
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Paul is personally a social conservative, but his ideology precludes him from pushing them on others. Why is this so hard to understand? The last thing he would ever do is sign a law like the Defense Of Marriage Act. He may believe that gay marriage is wrong on a personal level, but he'd be the one advocating the repeal of DADT.

I really don't think you understand that which you claim to despise.
Mr. "Unshakable foe" of abortion voted several times in the house to cut off funding for abortion. As for DOMA

Ron Paul wrote:

If I were in Congress in 1996, I would have voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, which used Congress's constitutional authority to define what official state documents other states have to recognize under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, to ensure that no state would be forced to recognize a “same sex” marriage license issued in another state. This Congress, I was an original cosponsor of the Marriage Protection Act, HR 3313, that removes challenges to the Defense of Marriage Act from federal courts' jurisdiction. If I were a member of the Texas legislature, I would do all I could to oppose any attempt by rogue judges to impose a new definition of marriage on the people of my state.
Not only did he support it, he also helped make it harder to remove.

By any chance do you know who Ayn Rand is? You must since you named yourself after a character from her one of her books, galt. Anyway she made two arguments against states rights. The first was the fact that the concept of states right just move arbitrary authority from the federal government to the states. It doesn't make it better or fix anything. The second argument is about how people who call themselves libertarian are really just social conservatives who hide behind things like states right. I have to agree with her. Ron Paul voting record, his rah rah about states right, and his personal beliefs seem a bit like the kind of people Rand hated.
It does push the arbitrary authority further down, and you do get more uneven results, but the basic premise is that the further power is pushed down, the more the individual possesses over his own life. Rand was an anarchist, of course she wouldn't get libertarianism, they weren't radical enough for her.

As for the second point, the truth is anything but. Do you know what is synonymous with calling yourself a libertarian? Calling yourself a social liberal and fiscal conservative. Before the word was twisted, liberalism meant the pursuit of liberty in both business and personal life. They are inseparable. Don't confuse modern liberalism with either social or fiscal liberty, it is the opposite on both counts: "individuals are stupid and corporations are evil". Modern conservatives just believe "individuals are stupid and morally misguided" so at least they get half of it right, if for the wrong reasons (campaign donations), which is why you see Libertarians in the Republican camp most often.
She wasn't an anarchist. I also seriously doubt you know what anarchism is Mr. Hegel expert.

Thank you for explaining terms to me I already know. Even though you going on about how libertarian means social liberal even though Paul the biggest libertarian around is a social conservative by your own admission.

Whatever though you still haven't addressed what I said about Paul's voting record
2011-12-30 10:22:04
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5500|foggy bottom
poli sci 101 itt
Tu Stultus Es
2011-12-30 10:28:52
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England
Rand was an anarchist. Have you read Atlas Shrugged? Her idyllic town was based on mutual trade. No government was necessary because everyone behaved rationally. Yes, it is an absurdity on par with utopian visions of happy communes (where no government is required either!).
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 10:33:48
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England
We find that 14 percent of American voters can be classified as libertarian. Other surveys find a larger number of people who hold views that are neither consistently liberal nor conservative but are best described as libertarian. A 2009 Gallup poll found that 23 percent held libertarian views. A Zogby poll found that 59 percent considered themselves "fiscally conservative and socially liberal," and 44 percent agreed that they were "fiscally conservative and socially liberal, also known as libertarian."
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11152
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 10:44:33
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

How fucking interesting. You still haven't addressed Paul letting his social views bleed over though.
2011-12-30 10:50:43
Jay
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+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

How fucking interesting. You still haven't addressed Paul letting his social views bleed over though.
He wants to cut off funding for abortion because it's federal money and he doesn't believe that the government should be paying for optional treatment. Why is this so fucking hard for you to understand?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 10:52:55
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Nah he called himself an unshakable foe of abortion and also tried to pass bills preventing all late term abortions. How long is it going to talk until you realize he is as shitty as the other Social conservatives on the right?
2011-12-30 10:56:58
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Nah he called himself an unshakable foe of abortion and also tried to pass bills preventing all late term abortions. How long is it going to talk until you realize he is as shitty as the other Social conservatives on the right?
Because he's not? I dunno what to tell you Macbeth, you've already got your mind made up. You think Obama is socially liberal (he's not) and will vote for him. I really don't care. I just don't understand why you keep going out of your way to piss on Paul. Do I go herp derp Obama sucks? No.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 10:57:08
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

You also ignored the gay marriage thing.
2011-12-30 10:58:54
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England
Because he feels that the government shouldn't be in the marriage business? Well, so do I.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:00:35
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Nah he called himself an unshakable foe of abortion and also tried to pass bills preventing all late term abortions. How long is it going to talk until you realize he is as shitty as the other Social conservatives on the right?
Because he's not? I dunno what to tell you Macbeth, you've already got your mind made up. You think Obama is socially liberal (he's not) and will vote for him. I really don't care. I just don't understand why you keep going out of your way to piss on Paul. Do I go herp derp Obama sucks? No.
Most of your post are herp derp but that is beside the point. I posted a few things that show he is as shitty on social issues as the others. Can you at least admit that he let's his social beliefs bleed into legislation?
2011-12-30 11:02:22
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Nah he called himself an unshakable foe of abortion and also tried to pass bills preventing all late term abortions. How long is it going to talk until you realize he is as shitty as the other Social conservatives on the right?
Because he's not? I dunno what to tell you Macbeth, you've already got your mind made up. You think Obama is socially liberal (he's not) and will vote for him. I really don't care. I just don't understand why you keep going out of your way to piss on Paul. Do I go herp derp Obama sucks? No.
Most of your post are herp derp but that is beside the point. I posted a few things that show he is as shitty on social issues as the others. Can you at least admit that he let's his social beliefs bleed into legislation?
He doesn't though. If you actually understood libertarian philosophy it wouldn't be an issue for you. It's obviously alien to you, so a lot of his positions look weird. They don't fit in the molds you were taught the world fits into in your poli sci classes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:03:42
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Because he feels that the government shouldn't be in the marriage business? Well, so do I.
You know he also voted to prohibit gay people from adopting kids. It goes deeper than keeping the government out of the marriage business. I don't see how making states recognize each others marriage certs is such a terrible government intrusion.
2011-12-30 11:05:10
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5500|foggy bottom
slippery slope
Tu Stultus Es
2011-12-30 11:06:26
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


Because he's not? I dunno what to tell you Macbeth, you've already got your mind made up. You think Obama is socially liberal (he's not) and will vote for him. I really don't care. I just don't understand why you keep going out of your way to piss on Paul. Do I go herp derp Obama sucks? No.
Most of your post are herp derp but that is beside the point. I posted a few things that show he is as shitty on social issues as the others. Can you at least admit that he let's his social beliefs bleed into legislation?
He doesn't though. If you actually understood libertarian philosophy it wouldn't be an issue for you. It's obviously alien to you, so a lot of his positions look weird. They don't fit in the molds you were taught the world fits into in your poli sci classes.
I understand it. I am not a fan of it as I am not a fan if Marxism either. I just don't think he is the savoir you all think he us. He is as shit as Newt tbh.
2011-12-30 11:07:37
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Because he feels that the government shouldn't be in the marriage business? Well, so do I.
You know he also voted to prohibit gay people from adopting kids. It goes deeper than keeping the government out of the marriage business. I don't see how making states recognize each others marriage certs is such a terrible government intrusion.
Because the states should not be issuing marriage certificates in the first place. Marriage is a religious ceremony and shouldn't mean anything to the government. There should be no benefits or disbenefits to marriage, it's simply a pledge between two people that they want to spend the rest of their life together. You certainly shouldn't need a government license to have the rite performed. Hell, you don't even need to have a rite performed. Just say 'hey, I want to spend the rest of my life with you' then she says 'yes' or 'no'. Done.

Last edited by Jay (2011-12-30 11:09:42)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:08:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


Most of your post are herp derp but that is beside the point. I posted a few things that show he is as shitty on social issues as the others. Can you at least admit that he let's his social beliefs bleed into legislation?
He doesn't though. If you actually understood libertarian philosophy it wouldn't be an issue for you. It's obviously alien to you, so a lot of his positions look weird. They don't fit in the molds you were taught the world fits into in your poli sci classes.
I understand it. I am not a fan of it as I am not a fan if Marxism either. I just don't think he is the savoir you all think he us. He is as shit as Newt tbh.
He's not perfect, but he's a billion times better than Newt or Romney or Obama. Sorry you can't see it, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:09:55
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Because he feels that the government shouldn't be in the marriage business? Well, so do I.
You know he also voted to prohibit gay people from adopting kids. It goes deeper than keeping the government out of the marriage business. I don't see how making states recognize each others marriage certs is such a terrible government intrusion.
Because the states should not be issuing marriage certificates in the first place. Marriage is a religious ceremony and shouldn't mean anything to the government. There should be no benefits or disbenefits to marriage, it's simply a pledge between two people that they want to spend the rest of their life together. You certainly shouldn't need a government license to have the rite performed.
Marriages are also a part of property transfer. No marriage license-wife doesn't get property if the husband dies without a will. You know marriage has been more about money and property in history than love right?
2011-12-30 11:11:24
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


You know he also voted to prohibit gay people from adopting kids. It goes deeper than keeping the government out of the marriage business. I don't see how making states recognize each others marriage certs is such a terrible government intrusion.
Because the states should not be issuing marriage certificates in the first place. Marriage is a religious ceremony and shouldn't mean anything to the government. There should be no benefits or disbenefits to marriage, it's simply a pledge between two people that they want to spend the rest of their life together. You certainly shouldn't need a government license to have the rite performed.
Marriages are also a part of property transfer. No marriage license-wife doesn't get property if the husband dies without a will. You know marriage has been more about money and property in history than love right?
That's why wills exist.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:11:25
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

You can have the religious ceremony without a marriage license. The license just covers you legally and controls property.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-12-30 11:11:46)

2011-12-30 11:13:09
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


He doesn't though. If you actually understood libertarian philosophy it wouldn't be an issue for you. It's obviously alien to you, so a lot of his positions look weird. They don't fit in the molds you were taught the world fits into in your poli sci classes.
I understand it. I am not a fan of it as I am not a fan if Marxism either. I just don't think he is the savoir you all think he us. He is as shit as Newt tbh.
He's not perfect, but he's a billion times better than Newt or Romney or Obama. Sorry you can't see it, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
He is worse than all three of those. Each one of those meet me on two of my three. He is just terrible.
2011-12-30 11:15:20
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


Because the states should not be issuing marriage certificates in the first place. Marriage is a religious ceremony and shouldn't mean anything to the government. There should be no benefits or disbenefits to marriage, it's simply a pledge between two people that they want to spend the rest of their life together. You certainly shouldn't need a government license to have the rite performed.
Marriages are also a part of property transfer. No marriage license-wife doesn't get property if the husband dies without a will. You know marriage has been more about money and property in history than love right?
That's why wills exist.
Seeing a lawyer to have a will drawn up is a pain compared to getting a marriage license. You would also be forcing people to use lawyers when they wouldn't have to. It would also mess up all if the private sector benefits that is paid out because of a legal marriage.
2011-12-30 11:19:37
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


I understand it. I am not a fan of it as I am not a fan if Marxism either. I just don't think he is the savoir you all think he us. He is as shit as Newt tbh.
He's not perfect, but he's a billion times better than Newt or Romney or Obama. Sorry you can't see it, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
He is worse than all three of those. Each one of those meet me on two of my three. He is just terrible.
Of course, because you're a statist.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-12-30 11:24:18
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5827

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:


He's not perfect, but he's a billion times better than Newt or Romney or Obama. Sorry you can't see it, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
He is worse than all three of those. Each one of those meet me on two of my three. He is just terrible.
Of course, because you're a statist.
That's news to me. Please tell me in depth all of my political views.
2011-12-30 11:31:32
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


He is worse than all three of those. Each one of those meet me on two of my three. He is just terrible.
Of course, because you're a statist.
That's news to me. Please tell me in depth all of my political views.
You think you're a smart guy, to the point that you think everyone else is stupid. You are also a misanthrope with psychopathic tendencies, so the idea of controlling others appeals to you. You seek power over others and would force them to your will if given the opportunity. Thus, you prefer an autocratic style of government where the idiot people are kept under the thumb of those who know better how they should live their life.

"Fuck the rednecks, their opinion is meaningless, let's force them to accept our beliefs at the federal level" Same goes for the social conservatives in this country, except in the opposite direction. By extension, you believe in a regulated economy because, again, businessmen do not have the nations self interest in their heart when making decisions.

I'm fairly certain I hit my mark. Word of advice though, you aren't nearly as intelligent as you've led yourself to believe, sorry. You're rather slow when it comes to understanding new concepts.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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