The Concept of Software Piracy

2011-12-25 10:44:11

#76

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

Winston_Churchill wrote:
Jay wrote:
is the second one physical sales? because i find it hard to believe that digital + physical sales are decreasing.

also: http://torrentfreak.com/artists-make-mo … re-100914/

record sales are a pretty small fraction of what artists make.

as a person that knows several artists/dj's, i can say that your last line isn't really true. maybe for artists on major record labels tied into shitty contracts, with huge needs for distribution and retail shelf-space; for the biggest mainstream operations, in other words. for the small to medium guys selling a physical record makes them a very decent amount of money - they control the mastering and the distribution themselves, normally only working through one distribution agent. so it's the inverse for the smaller and more 'underground' creative community. take the recent internet fad for 'dubstep' or whatever... where now everyone is into this niche form of dance music. most of the americans as a badge of 'cool' honour will namedrop all these small-time UK guys that are not on major record labels. they'll download and/or rip their music in order to be a part of it. that just hurts the artist themselves, who are hardly sat on a sony 5-year contract. buying physical records (especially vinyl) is a huge way of supporting - and showing appreciation - for the artist.

besides, what other ways are there? lots of electronic artists don't tour. for an electronic artist, popular today, to make money from 'other' avenues would mean he is forced to learn to DJ - at the very least. which is a completely different skillset and a hugely time consuming one to practice and work on, at that. thus just detracting from what the artist/producer is really about: producing. you see this right across the board in electronic music: producers not being able to get anywhere unless they can DJ and book out a club with their ability to mix other people's songs (attracting an audience on name value alone). similarly how else? you expect every record label and artist to go to a clothing company and devise a line of merchandise? because record sales are just sooo yesterday? again, these people are musicians... they're supposed to be making music, which you're supposed to be appreciating. instead our current consumption patterns forces the pressure on all of our small-to-medium size artists to become a one-man brand. the music suffers.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 10:46:40

#77

Winston_Churchill: Bazinga!; +521|6744|Toronto | Canada

and a quick google has told me that its decreased by less than 25%. most of which is obviously piracy, but some of that i would attribute to a pretty significant decrease in cost of albums. i'd bet a pretty good bit is offset by the amount theyre saving by selling stuff digitally.

media companies really just need a new, good system for spreading their goods. its pretty clear a lot of people will pay, as shown by the untold thousands of people paying up to $100 a month for seedboxes and VPSs. if they could make their distribution systems efficient, fast, fair, and affordable then people would actually use them

2011-12-25 10:51:51

#78

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

No they wouldn't. While espousing anti-capitalist rhetoric, people have shown an accentuated desire to hoard (which is purely capitalistic, lol). As long as there is a free option, people 'in the know' will steal. It wouldn't matter if they priced each song at $0.05 each, people like haibai would still rather torrent. Buying means actually having to have a job and todays teenagers don't work unless a gun is put to their head.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 10:52:59

#79

DrunkFace: Germans did 911; +427|6686|Disaster Free Zone

Jay wrote:
Winston_Churchill wrote:
Jay wrote:
is the second one physical sales? because i find it hard to believe that digital + physical sales are decreasing.

also: http://torrentfreak.com/artists-make-mo … re-100914/

record sales are a pretty small fraction of what artists make.
Yeah, that whole 'downloaders are more likely to buy music' line that the pirates use is total bullshit. Total music sales have decreased by half since napster. Is it any wonder that todays music is total shit and has been for the past decade?

Maybe sales are lower because the music is so shit.

Artists survived just fine pre 1990 when sales were far lower then today, and amazingly were still able to produce 'good' music.

2011-12-25 10:55:24

#80

FatherTed: xD; +3,936|6505|so randum

i rarely torrent music, and normally it's to replace a physical copy i've lost. there is nothing better than having a nice new cd/vinyl avec sleeve and track listings and lyrics. fuck buying digital music. it's the same with books - even if it's just a £5 paperback crime thriller, i want something i can actually hold.

Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella

2011-12-25 10:56:04

#81

Winston_Churchill: Bazinga!; +521|6744|Toronto | Canada

Jay wrote:
No they wouldn't. While espousing anti-capitalist rhetoric, people have shown an accentuated desire to hoard (which is purely capitalistic, lol). As long as there is a free option, people 'in the know' will steal. It wouldn't matter if they priced each song at $0.05 each, people like haibai would still rather torrent. Buying means actually having to have a job and todays teenagers don't work unless a gun is put to their head.

I'm not exactly sure how you feel you know this as a fact...

Being far more "in the know" than likely anyone else here, I know that the large majority of people in the piracy scene are quite willing to switch to such a system, if it existed.

2011-12-25 10:58:26

#82

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

Music is shit because record companies are only going with 'sure things'. Do you remember about 5 years ago when it seemed that almost nothing but Greatest Hits albums were coming out? Why do you think that was? Guaranteed sales. Why is it that every big tour is headlined by middle aged has-beens? Same reason. It's not that the worlds supply of talented musicians suddenly dried up, it's that they're bad investments. Too volatile. When the music companies were making money hand over fist there was a lot more money to go towards promoting smaller artists that might become big. Now there's very little.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 10:59:15

#83

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:
Jay wrote:
No they wouldn't. While espousing anti-capitalist rhetoric, people have shown an accentuated desire to hoard (which is purely capitalistic, lol). As long as there is a free option, people 'in the know' will steal. It wouldn't matter if they priced each song at $0.05 each, people like haibai would still rather torrent. Buying means actually having to have a job and todays teenagers don't work unless a gun is put to their head.
I'm not exactly sure how you feel you know this as a fact...

Being far more "in the know" than likely anyone else here, I know that the large majority of people in the piracy scene are quite willing to switch to such a system, if it existed.

They say that publicly because they still have a hint of guilt. Alone in their dark room their behavior wouldn't change at all.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:00:59

#84

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

Winston_Churchill wrote:
Jay wrote:
No they wouldn't. While espousing anti-capitalist rhetoric, people have shown an accentuated desire to hoard (which is purely capitalistic, lol). As long as there is a free option, people 'in the know' will steal. It wouldn't matter if they priced each song at $0.05 each, people like haibai would still rather torrent. Buying means actually having to have a job and todays teenagers don't work unless a gun is put to their head.
I'm not exactly sure how you feel you know this as a fact...

Being far more "in the know" than likely anyone else here, I know that the large majority of people in the piracy scene are quite willing to switch to such a system, if it existed.

well i'm in the know with the (underground) music scene and can tell you, from the perspective of the people who you are ripping off wholesale, that your "they barely get anything from record sales anyway, lol" defense is bullshit. glad you torrent-geeks are over there in your gated-community telling each other it's fine, though.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:02:55

#85

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

Jay wrote:
Music is shit because record companies are only going with 'sure things'. Do you remember about 5 years ago when it seemed that almost nothing but Greatest Hits albums were coming out? Why do you think that was? Guaranteed sales. Why is it that every big tour is headlined by middle aged has-beens? Same reason. It's not that the worlds supply of talented musicians suddenly dried up, it's that they're bad investments. Too volatile. When the music companies were making money hand over fist there was a lot more money to go towards promoting smaller artists that might become big. Now there's very little.

only mainstream music is shit, and that has more to do with the inevitable, logical endpoint of a mass culture so obsessed with instant gratification and instant wealth and bling and all of these other cultural currents than to do with 'music getting bad'. the mainstream mass culture simply desires these shitty, candy-coated 'products' and so the record companies sell to them. music is not suffering, just mainstream music has reached a destination that it has been heading towards for as long as 'pop' music has existed: the super-stream of hyper-coloured shite.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:03:15

#86

Winston_Churchill: Bazinga!; +521|6744|Toronto | Canada

No, not at all. I was pretty deep into it at one point so I had one on one conversations with the heads of some of the biggest private trackers in the world - all of them were quite willing to drop their sites for a better system. Also, most of the people who actually run the sites do it for the experience and learning, they dont have the time to be pirating 24/7 and watching movies nonstop.

2011-12-25 11:04:43

#87

Winston_Churchill: Bazinga!; +521|6744|Toronto | Canada

Uzique wrote:
Winston_Churchill wrote:
Jay wrote:
No they wouldn't. While espousing anti-capitalist rhetoric, people have shown an accentuated desire to hoard (which is purely capitalistic, lol). As long as there is a free option, people 'in the know' will steal. It wouldn't matter if they priced each song at $0.05 each, people like haibai would still rather torrent. Buying means actually having to have a job and todays teenagers don't work unless a gun is put to their head.
I'm not exactly sure how you feel you know this as a fact...

Being far more "in the know" than likely anyone else here, I know that the large majority of people in the piracy scene are quite willing to switch to such a system, if it existed.
well i'm in the know with the (underground) music scene and can tell you, from the perspective of the people who you are ripping off wholesale, that your "they barely get anything from record sales anyway, lol" defense is bullshit. glad you torrent-geeks are over there in your gated-community telling each other it's fine, though.

youre really funny but

a) you do it yourself
b) as i said before, im not in that scene anymore
c)

2011-12-25 11:10:47

#88

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

Uzique wrote:
Jay wrote:
Music is shit because record companies are only going with 'sure things'. Do you remember about 5 years ago when it seemed that almost nothing but Greatest Hits albums were coming out? Why do you think that was? Guaranteed sales. Why is it that every big tour is headlined by middle aged has-beens? Same reason. It's not that the worlds supply of talented musicians suddenly dried up, it's that they're bad investments. Too volatile. When the music companies were making money hand over fist there was a lot more money to go towards promoting smaller artists that might become big. Now there's very little.
only mainstream music is shit, and that has more to do with the inevitable, logical endpoint of a mass culture so obsessed with instant gratification and instant wealth and bling and all of these other cultural currents than to do with 'music getting bad'. the mainstream mass culture simply desires these shitty, candy-coated 'products' and so the record companies sell to them. music is not suffering, just mainstream music has reached a destination that it has been heading towards for as long as 'pop' music has existed: the super-stream of hyper-coloured shite.

True, but for every super pop act label header, there were hundreds of smaller bands that received record contracts and advances off their backs. Every label had a few offshoots (like Roadrunner) that were semi-indie and catered to niche markets. Now the big companies have abandoned those niches.

Downloaders are the reason why we're stuck with Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, and Miley Cyrus. Fantastic.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:16:11

#89

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

Winston_Churchill wrote:
Uzique wrote:
Winston_Churchill wrote:

I'm not exactly sure how you feel you know this as a fact...

Being far more "in the know" than likely anyone else here, I know that the large majority of people in the piracy scene are quite willing to switch to such a system, if it existed.
well i'm in the know with the (underground) music scene and can tell you, from the perspective of the people who you are ripping off wholesale, that your "they barely get anything from record sales anyway, lol" defense is bullshit. glad you torrent-geeks are over there in your gated-community telling each other it's fine, though.
youre really funny but

a) you do it yourself
b) as i said before, im not in that scene anymore
c)

not in that scene anymore? why do you keep bragging about it like some badge of honour then? and yes i download myself to preview things and to have them, like anyone else, but i also go to events and spend pretty much half of my disposable income and leisure time on directly supporting my music scene. my music scene doesn't involve big record labels and small trickle-down profits: i pay £12 for a vinyl and the artist gets a decent chunk, and i weekly pay the £10-25 ticket fee for events arranged and managed by the acts themselves. i think i do much much more than the average.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:21:53

#90

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

oh and i'd have no problem if they found a way to stop piracy outright. if my means of illegally downloading music were taken away tomorrow, i wouldn't care. a lot of the pirate's argument about "the industry needing to find a new model" operates on the basic, arrogant assumption that they as the consumer have some divine right. most of these arguments at their core derive from the stance that "oh my current consumption pattern is way too much to be afforded in real-world purchases, thus the record industry needs to find a way to reprice/resell their music at a price i can pay". well, no. you're not meant to own and hear every single album ever made. if you can't afford an album a week then get a real fucking job. for everything else, i think the pirates are in the wrong with their attitude of entitlement. every piece of music ever released is not your chocolate variety box: use your individual and realistic purchasing power to buy what you can.

the internet era has seemed to subconsciously inculcate people with this notion that it's somehow normal and average to have a music collection of 400-500 artists (at a conservative minimum) and hundreds and hundreds of hours of music. you're not owed or deserving of that at all. i'd never defend piracy or criticise the industry for that. music takes a lot of skill, expertise and money to make. same with games and film. it just has a minimum price, i'm afraid, and the industry shouldn't instead squeeze itself into a new shape because you're not prepared to part with anything more than .00001$ a track. a track is just worth a lot more than that, period. the problem is pirates won't acknowledge that they're not supposed to have so many of them.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:28:05

#91

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

I still remember going to the record store once a month or so to buy a handful of cd's. Some were good, some sucked, but I'll tell you this, I can't remember the last time I've listened to an album all the way through without twitching over to the shuffle button. I can sort of see the appeal of LPs because you're forced to pay attention. Digitalization has definitely given me ADD and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:31:52

#92

(HUN)Rudebwoy: Member; +45|6760

What if I dont download music, but listen to it via Youtube or Grooveshark? (I dont have such a special taste that I wouldnt find a song I like in either of those websites...) Is that still piracy?

2011-12-25 11:33:13

#93

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

it encourages music and films and other forms of cultural product to become peripheral. they don't get as much attention from you because they didn't cost anything, and because - of course - you're not paying any attention or appreciating it at all, you're prepared far less to pay for it in the stores... and increasingly, as you acquire more and more music/films that are auto-relegated to background-sound function, you find the store prices increasingly more ridiculous. i think it's one of the saddest things that some of my favourite albums of all time i've only ever had a relationship with through a desktop computer, or a pocketed ipod. i've already spent a small fortune reordering a back catalogue of all my favourite albums.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:34:05

#94

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
What if I dont download music, but listen to it via Youtube or Grooveshark? (I dont have such a special taste that I wouldnt find a song I like in either of those websites...) Is that still piracy?

Can you watch them without Youtube paying the artists royalties? No. There's a reason Youtube has ads.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:34:45

#95

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

90% of channels/uploads don't have ads, though.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:35:23

#96

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

At one point I had almost 1000 CDs. When I digitized them I ended up with about 13,000 mp3s

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:35:49

#97

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

Uzique wrote:
90% of channels/uploads don't have ads, though.

Right, but ones like VEVO do.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:36:06

#98

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6476

the cd is a dead medium to me, really. it's just as passionless as a digital file, only more inconvenient.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-25 11:36:47

#99

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5363|London, England

That's just romanticism

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-25 11:40:50

#100

(HUN)Rudebwoy: Member; +45|6760

What Im curious about is your opinion about the morality of it. What Im getting is that Uzique says you should support the artists you like. Am I immoral if I dont pay directly(or in this case even indirectly) for the records, but I watch/listen to them in legally green lit ways provided to me?

BF2S Forums The Concept of Software Piracy

Winston_Churchill wrote:

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