Well, not exactly food, but here when you fall behind paying the bill for water, no matter how large debt did you accumulate, the provider cant turn off the valves. If you fall behind paying electrical and gas bills, the provider can turn those off, but not water. You still have to compensate for the debt, but you will have water.Jay wrote:
Does everyone have a right to food too?
And if you need medical care, it must be provided, whether you can pay or not.(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
Well, not exactly food, but here when you fall behind paying the bill for water, no matter how large debt did you accumulate, the provider cant turn off the valves. If you fall behind paying electrical and gas bills, the provider can turn those off, but not water. You still have to compensate for the debt, but you will have water.Jay wrote:
Does everyone have a right to food too?
The notion that people can't get the medical care they need in the US is utter tripe.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
It's a two-part decision (sometimes three, if money is involved), as I mentioned above. Did you not understand that or just choose to ignore it?Uzique wrote:
people put in years of training for their specialism because it's their interest, or because it's what they're good at when they're doing their thing in med school. as you can tell from the negligible differences in pay-per-specialism, nobody is in their final year of medical school here in the UK doing 'market research' on which specialism is 'most in demand'. it's an absurd idea. to be honest if supply:demand and salary was so important everybody would be dropping out of british medical schools and going to vetinerary colleges: same skillset/interest, much better in every regard. but they don't do that. why? oh maybe cause they're interested in the medical profession out of humanistic principles. maybe they want to help people get better.
Personal desire regarding specialty plays a part, certainly. But if there is no demand--or even a surplus--for that specialty, then it makes no sense to put in the years of study and training for it. Particularly when they can serve man far better by specializing in an underserved area. I mean, all burgeoning doctors are perfectly altruistic, after all...you as much as said so. At least in the UK, anyway.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
right. we'll just have to agree to disagree on that view, then. my aunt was a head-matron/nurse after working her way through the wards as a nurse for 20 years, and she worked long hour for pay that was far from lucrative. she could have gone private at any time but she didn't. why? humanistic principle. doing something good for the better of society, instead of thinking about where she could be making the most money. in america that sort of attitude seems to bring you out in a mild allergic rash, or spades of skepticism and cynical disbelief. why? not everything is about money and fucking market supply-demand curves. her husband (my uncle) who is in his late 40's has developed a very bad case of MS and is wasting away at a fast rate. she could decide to become his carer full time (she is certainly qualified) and retire now - my family will support them financially - but instead she crossed over from her job as a head-nurse at a state hospital into NHS management and now runs and aims to improve the organization on a county (i.e. state) level. meanwhile my uncle receives treatment and get consultancy free on the state for his condition. why are they doing things this way? why is she so committed to the NHS as a british institution? i guess management were in high demand and she just wanted to fill the supply, right? as i said... your marketed healthcare is alien to us. seemingly the concept of a career not principally organized around unfettered individualism is alien to you, too.
now... why is it that the military guys are the most vocal opponents of big government?
now... why is it that the military guys are the most vocal opponents of big government?
Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-21 15:32:28)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Yeah but as soon as a patient is stable they're turfed out unless they have insurance. That's stable, not cured.FEOS wrote:
And if you need medical care, it must be provided, whether you can pay or not.(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
Well, not exactly food, but here when you fall behind paying the bill for water, no matter how large debt did you accumulate, the provider cant turn off the valves. If you fall behind paying electrical and gas bills, the provider can turn those off, but not water. You still have to compensate for the debt, but you will have water.Jay wrote:
Does everyone have a right to food too?
The notion that people can't get the medical care they need in the US is utter tripe.
(That's how I understand it, not sure if it's true.)
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
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Having to go into debt and possible bankruptcy is the issue. The costs for the patient are far lower and standards comparable in a universal healthcare system.FEOS wrote:
And if you need medical care, it must be provided, whether you can pay or not.(HUN)Rudebwoy wrote:
Well, not exactly food, but here when you fall behind paying the bill for water, no matter how large debt did you accumulate, the provider cant turn off the valves. If you fall behind paying electrical and gas bills, the provider can turn those off, but not water. You still have to compensate for the debt, but you will have water.Jay wrote:
Does everyone have a right to food too?
The notion that people can't get the medical care they need in the US is utter tripe.
That's a pretty big straw man there.Uzique wrote:
right. we'll just have to agree to disagree on that view, then. my aunt was a head-matron/nurse after working her way through the wards as a nurse for 20 years, and she worked long hour for pay that was far from lucrative. she could have gone private at any time but she didn't. why? humanistic principle. doing something good for the better of society, instead of thinking about where she could be making the most money. in america that sort of attitude seems to bring you out in a mild allergic rash, or spades of skepticism and cynical disbelief. why? not everything is about money and fucking market supply-demand curves. her husband (my uncle) who is in his late 40's has developed a very bad case of MS and is wasting away at a fast rate. she could decide to become his carer full time (she is certainly qualified) and retire now - my family will support them financially - but instead she crossed over from her job as a head-nurse at a state hospital into NHS management and now runs and aims to improve the organization on a county (i.e. state) level. meanwhile my uncle receives treatment and get consultancy free on the state for his condition. why are they doing things this way? why is she so committed to the NHS as a british institution? i guess management were in high demand and she just wanted to fill the supply, right? as i said... your marketed healthcare is alien to us. seemingly the concept of a career not principally organized around unfettered individualism is alien to you, too.
now... why is it that the military guys are the most vocal opponents of big government?
As to the last point, probably because a lot of us like the idea of the limited government created in 1789, or because we see a lot of inefficiency and BS within the government.
Why do you keep talking about money when arguing with me on this point? Have I not made it clear (multiple times) that the supply/demand aspect I am referring to has little to nothing to do with money? As RAIMIUS said: Nice strawman.Uzique wrote:
right. we'll just have to agree to disagree on that view, then. my aunt was a head-matron/nurse after working her way through the wards as a nurse for 20 years, and she worked long hour for pay that was far from lucrative. she could have gone private at any time but she didn't. why? humanistic principle. doing something good for the better of society, instead of thinking about where she could be making the most money. in america that sort of attitude seems to bring you out in a mild allergic rash, or spades of skepticism and cynical disbelief. why? not everything is about money and fucking market supply-demand curves. her husband (my uncle) who is in his late 40's has developed a very bad case of MS and is wasting away at a fast rate. she could decide to become his carer full time (she is certainly qualified) and retire now - my family will support them financially - but instead she crossed over from her job as a head-nurse at a state hospital into NHS management and now runs and aims to improve the organization on a county (i.e. state) level. meanwhile my uncle receives treatment and get consultancy free on the state for his condition. why are they doing things this way? why is she so committed to the NHS as a british institution? i guess management were in high demand and she just wanted to fill the supply, right? as i said... your marketed healthcare is alien to us. seemingly the concept of a career not principally organized around unfettered individualism is alien to you, too.
now... why is it that the military guys are the most vocal opponents of big government?
Why are we the most vocal opponents of big government? Two big reasons:
1. Unlike most others, the majority of us have read the Constitution, since we signed up to defend it with our lives.
2. Unlike most others, we've seen the beast from the inside and know how unbelievably inefficient it is--by design. And do not want something like that making critical decisions for us or our families beyond what is absolutely necessary. And I'm sorry--having the government making healthcare decisions for my family is not a necessity.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
re: number 1- OK br0
I'm signing up for the military, better read the constitution word for word since i'm defending it herp derp.
but mostly no one else reads it, because they aren't defending it
I'm signing up for the military, better read the constitution word for word since i'm defending it herp derp.
but mostly no one else reads it, because they aren't defending it
His second point is spot on though.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
re: number 1- OK br0
I'm signing up for the military, better read the constitution word for word since i'm defending it herp derp.
but mostly no one else reads it, because they aren't defending it
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
sure. you don't need to work for the government to understand that, especially if you ever had to deal with the bureaucracy. Things like filing for financial aid, social services, social security, etc. The bureaucracy is there on every level. I didn't need to work within the government to understand that - I just had to experience a small bit of it to realize.
"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
re: number 1- OK br0
I'm signing up for the military, better read the constitution word for word since i'm defending it herp derp.
but mostly no one else reads it, because they aren't defending it
One would hope the people who take that oath understand the meaning. So, yeah, a bit of reading should be done!
Seriously, it's not that much. Our Constitution is a fairly concise document, considering the government it created.
Last edited by RAIMIUS (2011-12-21 21:34:07)
why do you guys think that the government funding a universal healthcare system will make it so inefficient? do you really think there are desk commissars at every level in the NHS stamping a 'seal of approval' on every single activity the organisation does? it runs completely separately as it's own machine - the only government involvement really is the annual bloody budget.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
ooooh say can you seeeeeeRAIMIUS wrote:
"I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
re: number 1- OK br0
I'm signing up for the military, better read the constitution word for word since i'm defending it herp derp.
but mostly no one else reads it, because they aren't defending it
One would hope the people who take that oath understand the meaning. So, yeah, a bit of reading should be done!
Seriously, it's not that much. Our Constitution is a fairly concise document, considering the government it created.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Huh, when I signed up to the military they were just like "do you hold any allegiances that you would consider more important than your allegiance to NZ" and I was like "nah" and they were like "chur bro" and I was like "sweet as". Same thing really, although it lacks the gravitas.
I think that the US Constitution is a bit like the Bible in that people are taught to obey and respect it regardless of whether they actually know what they are obeying and respecting.
I think that the US Constitution is a bit like the Bible in that people are taught to obey and respect it regardless of whether they actually know what they are obeying and respecting.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
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The US constitution is certainly held in high esteem (not quite like the Bible, depending on where you go), but nobody's forcing anyone to "obey" their rights. I've received no letters from big brother telling me to go buy a gun or set up a peaceful protest.
It is annoying how people fall back on the constitution in a debate when they have nothing else. I really like guns but arguments against guns aren't nullified by bringing up the constitution. It isn't sacred. We can change it.
I also hate how it's used as sort of a boogeyman to scare voters. [ insert video of Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin calling everything and anything unconstitutional]
I also hate how it's used as sort of a boogeyman to scare voters. [ insert video of Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin calling everything and anything unconstitutional]
In theory yes but in actuality not even close.AussieReaper wrote:
Government run health care doesn't need to run a profit. That isn't the goal. The goal is to provide the best service possible and to as many people as possible.
how so? the NHS doesn't turn a profit and it provides care to the entire population of britain, regardless.
so how "not even close"?
so how "not even close"?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Judging from the British smiles I see I would say again not even close.Uzique wrote:
how so? the NHS doesn't turn a profit and it provides care to the entire population of britain, regardless.
so how "not even close"?
Using that same line of reasoning, our healthcare must be dismal because there's a bunch of morbidly obese people in the Midwest.HudsonFalcon wrote:
Judging from the British smiles I see I would say again not even close.Uzique wrote:
how so? the NHS doesn't turn a profit and it provides care to the entire population of britain, regardless.
so how "not even close"?
Does.not.compute
yeah lets rely on a stereotype based on naval relations in the 1750's to discredit british healthcare in 2011!HudsonFalcon wrote:
Judging from the British smiles I see I would say again not even close.Uzique wrote:
how so? the NHS doesn't turn a profit and it provides care to the entire population of britain, regardless.
so how "not even close"?
fwiw americans are mocked the world over for bleached-white false-teeth hollywood smiles. it's not alluring to everyone.
Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-22 10:13:36)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Since British Healthcare isn't the topic of this discussion I will use stereotypes and I will mock you. Besides comparing the two systems is like apples and pears.
why? cause one provides healthcare for everyone and lives up to the humanist tenets of medicine, and the other is run on a business model?
yeah apples and pears. but which tastes better?
yeah apples and pears. but which tastes better?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
because how the US is set up with states vs federal powers. Why doesnt the EU provide universal health care for all its members then?Uzique wrote:
why? cause one provides healthcare for everyone and lives up to the humanist tenets of medicine, and the other is run on a business model?
yeah apples and pears. but which tastes better?
