Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

cpt.fass1 wrote:

But wait, insurance is baised off of everyone paying into that system. So with more people getting laid off and not being able to have insurance your insurance will keep going up.
Unemployment is on the downswing. But that's irrelevant anyway, the cost would only go up a bit if the insurance companies didn't lay off employees to match their loss of premiums. If premium collection goes down, so do payouts.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6392|what

Jay wrote:

Lol. You've obviously never experienced American bureaucracy. "Best service possible"...
I said that's the goal. Not that it would be achieved overnight. I haven't been a part of the American system, but I can say that it's a lot easier to vote out a government than it is to vote out a CEO or board of directors. How many people who are in a health insurance plan are also a shareholder in that company? Not that a shareholders vote alone allows much.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
there's also a fundamental difference of interest when it comes to employee-culture and union activity. employees of the private company (have to) serve in the private interests of the company qua company: maximising profits and delivering a service that pleases their management, financially, before it pleases their patients, personally. union organisation and affiliation in the private sector is based around defending the worker's rights pertaining to and against capital. in the public sector, health employees are far more hippocratic: serving the interests of the public first, with no base-line figures to meet (not involved with the financials at all in their day-to-day work). unions reflect this work culture and are equally interested in the state of the institution for its healthcare, not its profit margins and shareholder returns.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-19 17:51:26)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Uzique wrote:

there's also a fundamental difference of interest when it comes to employee-culture and union activity. employees of the private company (have to) serve in the private interests of the company qua company: maximising profits and delivering a service that pleases their management, financially, before it pleases their patients, personally. union organisation and affiliation in the private sector is based around defending the worker's rights pertaining to and against capital. in the public sector, health employees are far more hippocratic: serving the interests of the public first, with no base-line figures to meet (not involved with the financials at all in their day-to-day work). unions reflect this work culture and are equally interested in the state of the institution for its healthcare, not its profit margins and shareholder returns.
Perhaps in theory. In reality you get the same inferior product you would from any monopoly, except this one has a direct line to your bank account.

I'll take the service provided by a for-profit any day of the week. You two keep going on and on about shareholders and other nonsense as if it's the point. It's not. Those shareholders won't make a penny if the company isn't trying to increase its market share. The company isn't increasing it's market share by providing an inferior product or fucking over its customers. That only happens when competition is limited a la a monopoly.

In America, people go into government service for an easy job, a decent salary, a lifetime of slow upward movement, job security and a pension. It does not attract the type of person that will exert themselves to help customers, quite the opposite, in my experience they will put more work into getting out of work than they put into their actual job. Lazy, incompetent, these are words that the average American would use to describe their countries bureaucrats. Altruistic is not one of them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
When I was in the US I spoke to some Americans about our health system and our award wage/salary system (four weeks paid leave minimum per year, pro rate for part time, sick leave, compassionate leave etc). They were amazed at the benefits we have in Australia. Something I just sort of took for granted as I had thought it part of the system of any first world country. Must say from a personal standpoint, I am glad to be living in this society
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
it seems jay would prefer to have a healthcare system that negatively defines it strengths rather than positively
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
It seems Jay believes that private health cover doesn't exist in countries with socialised healthcare. Those systems are in place just like in the US, but you also have the cover of the public system should you require it/too poor to afford private.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Jaekus wrote:

It seems Jay believes that private health cover doesn't exist in countries with socialised healthcare. Those systems are in place just like in the US, but you also have the cover of the public system should you require it/too poor to afford private.
For the 18958048500547087th time, we already have a government system in place to cover our poor, and our old.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6977|Cinncinatti
but people get turned away
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

RTHKI wrote:

but people get turned away
Turned away by whom? For what?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum
doesn't appear to be as, uh, comprehensive as ours if it's a continually raised point.

on a pure human basis, why are you happy with someone making profit on your health?
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Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6710
it's because jay still believes that the logic of the market somehow 'covers' and 'cares' for people
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

doesn't appear to be as, uh, comprehensive as ours if it's a continually raised point.

on a pure human basis, why are you happy with someone making profit on your health?
Why would I be unhappy about it? You don't think your government factors in some profit into the equation? They aren't upgrading equipment if they simply break even on every hospital visit. They aren't giving their staff raises if they break even.

I've never heard of a single for-profit hospital in the US. They all operate as non-profits which force them to plow any profits they make back into the hospital system. The health insurance companies might as well operate as non-profits because they make on average 4% profit per premium payer (they make their real money by investing those premium payments in short term securities). The real costs come from pharmaceutical and equipment providers. Those are the guys making hefty profits, but they've earned them. They dumped a bunch of money into R&D to bring new products to market (after spending years in FDA purgatory).

Why making a profit ever became equated with 'bad' I'll never understand. Someone provides a service, they collect a fee past their costs. Ridiculous, amirite?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6392|what

He believes that healthcare shouldn't be a right but a privilege.

Such a wonderful ideal that.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Uzique wrote:

it's because jay still believes that the logic of the market somehow 'covers' and 'cares' for people

Jay wrote:

Everyone should work for the government. Profits are evil.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:

He believes that healthcare shouldn't be a right but a privilege.

Such a wonderful ideal that.
So you feel that since you have a pulse you have a right to a doctors time? When did he agree to become your slave?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum

Jay wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

doesn't appear to be as, uh, comprehensive as ours if it's a continually raised point.

on a pure human basis, why are you happy with someone making profit on your health?
Why would I be unhappy about it? You don't think your government factors in some profit into the equation? They aren't upgrading equipment if they simply break even on every hospital visit. They aren't giving their staff raises if they break even.

I've never heard of a single for-profit hospital in the US. They all operate as non-profits which force them to plow any profits they make back into the hospital system. The health insurance companies might as well operate as non-profits because they make on average 4% profit per premium payer (they make their real money by investing those premium payments in short term securities). The real costs come from pharmaceutical and equipment providers. Those are the guys making hefty profits, but they've earned them. They dumped a bunch of money into R&D to bring new products to market (after spending years in FDA purgatory).

Why making a profit ever became equated with 'bad' I'll never understand. Someone provides a service, they collect a fee past their costs. Ridiculous, amirite?
your entire post assumes heathcare should be a net positive, why should it? do the police and fire services generate money? does the armed forces generate money? someone generating money as the main option on peoples health and wellbeing makes me feel ill
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England
teds, do you expect your local grocer to provide you with produce profit free? He's providing a life sustaining service.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum
i'm sorry, did you just compare a guy who could deliver life-saving heart surgery with someone who sells carrots?
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Use an umbrella
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6392|what

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

He believes that healthcare shouldn't be a right but a privilege.

Such a wonderful ideal that.
So you feel that since you have a pulse you have a right to a doctors time? When did he agree to become your slave?
So when did letting people die due to lack of medical care become acceptable to you?

Is it cause taxes just hurt so much?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

i'm sorry, did you just compare a guy who could deliver life-saving heart surgery with someone who sells carrots?
Yes. You need food to live do you not?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum
and irregardless, if you want to pursue this asinine tangent, well yes we also have state-allocated food provision via benefits, and we also have individual grocers

so what was your point?
Small hourglass island
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Use an umbrella
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6740|so randum
anyway, at the root of the question is; why do you feel happy that someone can make money of your health?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

and irregardless, if you want to pursue this asinine tangent, well yes we also have state-allocated food provision via benefits, and we also have individual grocers

so what was your point?
My tangent is not asinine. Why do you place medical care up on a pedestal and assume it is so different? Why does it bother you that a doctor would seek profit but not your grocer? They both provide services that are necessary to live. So does a home builder. So does the heating company. And the water company. Should these all be nationalized?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

anyway, at the root of the question is; why do you feel happy that someone can make money of your health?
It doesn't make me happy or unhappy. I just take it as a given and move on. It is normal to make a profit.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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