BF2S Forums U.S. health care reform

right.

http://www.bma.org.uk/

next.

jay i do wish you'd stop spouting shit about stuff you know nothing about. painting any socialist healthcare system as this orwellian "wage suppressed", grey, drab environment where there is no worker's freedom and omg! you're a slave to the machine. what a load of tosh. you seem to be making a habit lately out of talking pure conjecture about stuff you know literally nada about. have you been to a british hospital? have you spoken to any GP's from the uk? no? okay then.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-18 09:48:43)

now please let us know how life is so terrible for doctors qua 'employees of the state'

rofl. i don't have any "job" goals, thanks very much. that's funny coming from someone that has been pretty much exclusively only employed by the government for his working life, though. very funny. what's even funnier is that teachers and doctors have some of the best representation and some of the most influential unions in the entire united kingdom. what exactly are they missing that the private sector has? public sector work here has better rights, representation and better 'wage bargaining' than any private sector job. your figure of "99% of workers" is total bullshit when it comes to the private sector. in fact that only exists in the upper levels of wage-earners, in the high professions. somebody doing standard office work in the private sector cannot 'negotiate' their wage; their only power of 'negotiation' is one that will kindly see them asked to leave, as 5 others are willing to work for the stipulated hourly wage.

from what i know the only jobs where you can really negotiate a salary are performance-driven professional jobs, normally mid-high paying in salary anyway, where during the interview process (if successful) the employer and you can negotiate a discretionary salary, based on how impressed they are in the interview and how much they judge you're worth. it's not very common in the UK at all, no. giving the individual choice to negotiate his own salary is bad for office culture, because you have workers doing the same job, or at the same rank within an organisation, being paid disparate amounts based on what is really a subjective evaluation... or worse, based on whim. jay's "99%" figure is total bollocks. do mcdonalds workers negotiate their wage? they're in the private sector, so surely they have this benefit over public sector workers!!! methinks he's been reading too many bullshit books lately.

Uzique wrote:

from what i know the only jobs where you can really negotiate a salary are performance-driven professional jobs, normally mid-high paying in salary anyway, where during the interview process (if successful) the employer and you can negotiate a discretionary salary, based on how impressed they are in the interview and how much they judge you're worth. it's not very common in the UK at all, no. giving the individual choice to negotiate his own salary is bad for office culture, because you have workers doing the same job, or at the same rank within an organisation, being paid disparate amounts based on what is really a subjective evaluation... or worse, based on whim. jay's "99%" figure is total bollocks. do mcdonalds workers negotiate their wage? they're in the private sector, so surely they have this benefit over public sector workers!!! methinks he's been reading too many bullshit books lately.

Any non-union, non-governmental job in the US is salary-negotiable. If you're applying for a job at McDonalds and they offer you $9 an hour, you can request $9.50 instead (or $100/hr instead if you want ). They don't have to give it to you, but the option is there. Yes, this means that people at the same 'rank and level' make different salaries. So what? It's better than everyone making the exact same pay. Better to reward effort than treat everyone equally, because no, not everyone is equal. I worked in a pay scale environment in the Army where pay was dictated by time in service and rank. So, regardless of effort, I was making precisely the same wage as the guy next to me. End result? Everyone works just hard enough to not get fired or disciplined. There's a reason American employers manage to squeeze more productivity out of their workers than you Euros do...

Umm, people in the same positions do receive different salaries here too. Its called a raise/promotion. But you have to work for it and prove to your employers that you worth your money, and not "negotiate" a higher salary from the get-go, because you cant prove shit during a 1 hour (tops) interview.

Besides on what grounds would you ask for a higher starting wage at McDonalds? They dont care if you have a phd, you would still be flippin burgers... and like Uzique said, since the only jobs where the pay is really negotiable are "high-end" (sorry dont know how else to express myself), there is a huge chance that there is a guy who can do just as fine as you do, without asking a 6% raise at the very start.

Last edited by (HUN)Rudebwoy (2011-12-18 13:11:13)

those german COMMIES sure do have a poor work ethic

that was really weak, back to EE for me

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

There's a reason American employers manage to squeeze more productivity out of their workers than you Euros do...

support this statement, please.

Uzique wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

There's a reason American employers manage to squeeze more productivity out of their workers than you Euros do...

support this statement, please.

Uzique wrote:

lol at suggesting GDP is linked in any way to "99% of workers being able to negotiate their wages" (which is the reason you are stating for employers being able to get more out of each individual worker)

Compare the productivity of a government or union employee vs productivity achieved in the private sector.

Uzique wrote:

what does that have to do with anything, considering we've already said that doctors here can negotiate their wages through their incredibly powerful union. so it's not done on the basis of individual contract, but so what?

Unions are an incredibly poor substitute. Are we all faceless blobs with the exact same needs and desires? No. If I want to negotiate an extra week of vacation per year in lieu of a pay raise, will the union do that for me? No. They do what they feel is in the best interest of the majority, and if the majority wants a pay raise instead, tough noogies for me. I am an individual and prefer to negotiate my own compensation.

However, in your system, there's no alternative. Against the government bureaucracy an individual has zero leverage. Since the doctors are government employees, they'd be at the mercy of exchequer accountants without their union.