U.S. health care reform

2011-12-17 00:17:12

#76

(HUN)Rudebwoy: Member; +45|6951

Let me just add how the system works here (Hungary) to add perspective to the argument.

Its a typical socialized system, so you dont have to sign contracts with health insurance companies, instead you pay a health care tax to the government which is deducted from your income. That tax is the same percentage for everyone: 6% of the gross income. Now this would be fine if the average person had a decent salary, but since most people dont earn that much, that 6% is a laughably small amount (average annual salary here is about 10-12k $). Of course that means that the doctors are extremely underpayed, and those who are skilled are leaving the country. What we have is a few semi skilled docs with archaic instruments(in poor condition).

So the main problem is that the social system doesn't work if the health insurance to be payed is so low(especially if the average salary is low as well). My other main concern(what may be actually relevant to the argument) is that it's not fair. I mean if I have a good salary and pay 5 times more health insurance tax I get the same shitty treatment like the one who barely pays anything...

Last edited by (HUN)Rudebwoy (2011-12-17 00:26:04)

2011-12-17 01:36:36

#77

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6302|eXtreme to the maX

So the main problem is that the social system doesn't work if the health insurance to be payed is so low(especially if the average salary is low as well). My other main concern(what may be actually relevant to the argument) is that it's not fair. I mean if I have a good salary and pay 5 times more health insurance tax I get the same shitty treatment like the one who barely pays anything...

But then if you develop a complex illness requiring the taxes of 100 people to pay for your treatment you still pay the same and get your treatment.

There's no perfect system.

Fuck Israel

2011-12-17 02:02:52

#78

(HUN)Rudebwoy: Member; +45|6951

Yes, of course that door swings both ways, but that just supports my opinion about that system not being fair.

2011-12-17 04:28:21

#79

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I think you should have access to private care too. I think there should be a minimum universal coverage. I think if that basic coverage comes with the stipulation that you have to see a GP once a year that would reduce health costs for everyone.

countries with socialized healthcare do have massive private health industries, too. the fact is that the social system exists though, for the less fortunate. to be honest i find the whole "well that poor blue-collar guy has paranoid schizophrenia, why should we have to pay for his mental illness? give him the $50k tab" attitude a little bit nauseating. it's a brand of individualism that could never catch on anywhere except for in the most unequal society in the advanced world (this is coming from a fella native to the country in the enviable second-from-bottom position).

Last edited by Uzique (2011-12-17 04:28:44)

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 07:02:05

#80

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6607|'Murka

And we have that, too, Uzique. It's called Medicare. And because of sky-high healtcare costs, it's breaking our government's budgetary back.

It's an illusion that the US doesn't have a healthcare safetynet for the less fortunate. That's not the problem. The problem is cost, and a single-payer system will not fix that.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-12-17 07:28:24

#81

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6912

FEOS wrote:
And we have that, too, Uzique. It's called Medicare. And because of sky-high healtcare costs, it's breaking our government's budgetary back.

It's an illusion that the US doesn't have a healthcare safetynet for the less fortunate. That's not the problem. The problem is cost, and a single-payer system will not fix that.

I thought its Medicaid for the poor and medicare for the old?

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2011-12-17 07:32:55

#82

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6607|'Murka

Cybargs wrote:
FEOS wrote:
And we have that, too, Uzique. It's called Medicare. And because of sky-high healtcare costs, it's breaking our government's budgetary back.

It's an illusion that the US doesn't have a healthcare safetynet for the less fortunate. That's not the problem. The problem is cost, and a single-payer system will not fix that.
I thought its Medicaid for the poor and medicare for the old?

Medicaid is a state program, Medicare is federal. But they do generally divide up that way, as well. Medicare dollars go to the states to be executed via Medicaid.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-12-17 08:24:12

#83

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5554|London, England

Uzique wrote:
i know you do have a child with special needs, which is why my mind boggles. you're happy paying "a significant amount" (which you talk about as if your spending power on healthcare is some sort of bragging point...) for healthcare. you get that for free here. if you have or adopt a child with learning difficulties, the state helps you look after that child. it doesn't look at your situation and tut and roll its eyes and go "ooh, that's going to cost you a pretty penny and put up your premium!", as if having a child with a disability is anyone's fault. this whole 'well there's a bill somewhere' mentality is dumb. the idea of healthcare is its no one's fault a lot of the time, so we should all chip in to make sure we're all living healthy with peace of mind.

Why does every Euro/Aussie say this same thing? It sure as shit isn't free.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-17 08:28:56

#84

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5554|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Jay wrote:
If I added up the cost of insurance premiums over the course of my lifetime, I guarantee that it would end up costing me less than I would alternatively be forced to pay in taxes into a government bureaucracy.
Other countries manage it fine, and achieve better outcomes at half the cost.

I'm not saying your govt could manage it but there you go.

Sure, by forcing doctors and hospitals to accept whatever payment the government bureaucracy dictates they receive. I prefer my health professionals to have the ability to earn a profit. It gives them motivation that is sorely lacking in those that work government jobs.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-17 08:31:10

#85

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5554|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I think you should have access to private care too. I think there should be a minimum universal coverage. I think if that basic coverage comes with the stipulation that you have to see a GP once a year that would reduce health costs for everyone.

But there is minimum universal coverage. Everyone now has to buy insurance!

https://images.picturesdepot.com/photo/v/vote_democrat-22911.jpg

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-17 08:37:18

#86

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

Jay wrote:
Uzique wrote:
i know you do have a child with special needs, which is why my mind boggles. you're happy paying "a significant amount" (which you talk about as if your spending power on healthcare is some sort of bragging point...) for healthcare. you get that for free here. if you have or adopt a child with learning difficulties, the state helps you look after that child. it doesn't look at your situation and tut and roll its eyes and go "ooh, that's going to cost you a pretty penny and put up your premium!", as if having a child with a disability is anyone's fault. this whole 'well there's a bill somewhere' mentality is dumb. the idea of healthcare is its no one's fault a lot of the time, so we should all chip in to make sure we're all living healthy with peace of mind.
Why does every Euro/Aussie say this same thing? It sure as shit isn't free.

well no shit. the point is that it is indiscriminately taxed out of your wages. that's like saying that state schools aren't 'free', because it's costing someone, somewhere. well no shit! the fact is that they don't have a FEE or a direct COST for USE: in that sense they are 'free' to USE. the fact that they still cost money isn't important because it's paid for by a monthly tax rate that is skimmed automatically from your wages.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 08:44:43

#87

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5554|London, England

Uzique wrote:
Jay wrote:
Uzique wrote:
i know you do have a child with special needs, which is why my mind boggles. you're happy paying "a significant amount" (which you talk about as if your spending power on healthcare is some sort of bragging point...) for healthcare. you get that for free here. if you have or adopt a child with learning difficulties, the state helps you look after that child. it doesn't look at your situation and tut and roll its eyes and go "ooh, that's going to cost you a pretty penny and put up your premium!", as if having a child with a disability is anyone's fault. this whole 'well there's a bill somewhere' mentality is dumb. the idea of healthcare is its no one's fault a lot of the time, so we should all chip in to make sure we're all living healthy with peace of mind.
Why does every Euro/Aussie say this same thing? It sure as shit isn't free.
well no shit. the point is that it is indiscriminately taxed out of your wages. that's like saying that state schools aren't 'free', because it's costing someone, somewhere. well no shit! the fact is that they don't have a FEE or a direct COST for USE: in that sense they are 'free' to USE. the fact that they still cost money isn't important because it's paid for by a monthly tax rate that is skimmed automatically from your wages.

So I don't understand uzique, how can you say it's cheaper to have your NHS system if you never see the fees attached to the services? I mean I know you probably paid two sticks of bubblegum in taxes during your lifetime so it hasn't affected you, but I guarantee if we had a NHS of our own I would pay more in taxes than I do in insurance premiums. By a lot. My employer covers most of the cost of my insurance. The vast majority of Americans have the same deal.

I see a doctor once every three years, maybe. I don't mind paying the $100 a month premium, the $50 co-pay for a checkup, or the $500 deductible if something serious happens. If the US tried to put a NHS system in place, you damn well better believe that I would pay at least triple that every year for the same services. Efficient and government are antonyms.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-17 08:49:48

#88

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

well we can have check-ups as often as we want (certainly much more frequently than once every 3 years) and can go and get medical advice whenever we want, without fear that it'll be an unnecessary sting in the weekly/monthly budget. that's a nice peace of mind. and yeah, great job, the guy with a decade of work over the 22 year old has paid more taxes. your condescension is so well earned! whenever i have worked i have paid the tax rate, so i know how much of your spendable income it takes away, relative to your earning power.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 12:28:21

#89

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6607|'Murka

So...since my insurance premiums come out of my pre-tax earnings, and I never see the money come out of my check...my medical care is "free" too! We've got the same system you do! Argument settled!

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-12-17 13:31:32

#90

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 13:42:06

#91

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6607|'Murka

Such a pain when people use your own logic to show how silly your argument is, ain't it?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-12-17 14:27:40

#92

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6302|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:
So I don't understand uzique, how can you say it's cheaper to have your NHS system if you never see the fees attached to the services?

Averaging the costs, NHS costs half as much as the US system, same for most countries where the govt runs healthcare, see the chart I posted earlier.

Fuck Israel

2011-12-17 14:31:54

#93

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

FEOS wrote:
Such a pain when people use your own logic to show how silly your argument is, ain't it?

oh yes it really is. enjoy paying much higher medical bills for the rest of your child's life. nice logic.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 14:36:16

#94

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5554|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Jay wrote:
So I don't understand uzique, how can you say it's cheaper to have your NHS system if you never see the fees attached to the services?
Averaging the costs, NHS costs half as much as the US system, same for most countries where the govt runs healthcare, see the chart I posted earlier.

Everyone should work for the government. Profits are evil.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-12-17 14:37:56

#95

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6195|...

I haven't seen a doctor in the last 7 years

inane little opines

2011-12-17 14:39:01

#96

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6666

that's pretty bad.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-12-17 14:43:33

#97

DrunkFace: Germans did 911; +427|6877|Disaster Free Zone

I've only seen a doctor once in about 12 years. And that one time, all he did was say 'elevate, rest and ice'. Geeez... cause you needed a medical degree to come up with that?

2011-12-17 15:02:26

#98

Roc18: `; +655|5986|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY

Shocking wrote:
I haven't seen a doctor in the last 7 years

This is why this crap needs reform.

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2011-12-17 15:21:10

#99

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6607|'Murka

Roc18 wrote:
Shocking wrote:
I haven't seen a doctor in the last 7 years
This is why this crap needs reform.

Why? Where is it written that in order to be healthy, you must visit the doctor annually, every six months, or any other given interval? Visit a doctor when you need to.

If it's every 7 years, that's fine...so long as that's when you need to see them.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-12-17 15:26:11

#100

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6195|...

Okay well I did get stitches this one time but I haven't been to the guy for sickness of any sort in 7 years.

If I get seriously ill I usually figure out I should've gone to the doctor afterwards, by then it's useless.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-12-17 15:30:33)

inane little opines

BF2S Forums U.S. health care reform

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Roc18 wrote:

Shocking wrote:

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