Isn't the US great. Public officials are forced to listen to the views of the people. Do you think this is a bad thing? The future is a Constitutional Republic.
They put themselves in the lose/ lose, not me. Politicians have agendas. They hardly have to do with you or me. They have to keep a face for us regular people regardless of the shit behind the scenes. So Rumsfeld and Bush and Cheney for that matter have no choice in public forums; they will eat shit for 5 minutes and go back to the links after the speech. Brush it off. They went from no one speaking out against them years ago, (if you did you get castrated....similar to these forums) to having a few speak out and saying "well.....fuck it we can deal with a few." The numbers have tanked in the polls. Ordinary people are (GASP) questioning the Prez.lowing wrote:
Well it is this exact lose, lose scenario that this administration has to put up with from people like you....The man had 2 choices, let them speak or have them removed, and there you are poised to criticise BOTH.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
On another note, what would Bush, Rumsfeld or the Admin look like if they HADN'T let them speak?lowing wrote:
Nope not at all. I do think our democracy is now a shining light for the world to admire and even model, if they chose to.
Our form of govt. allows us the freedom to have these open forums, for us to criticize our leadership openly. When corruption raises its ugly head within our govt. It is exposed, for the whole world to see, most of the time by our govt. itself and it is cleaned up. Our freedom of press holds our officals in check, without fear of repercussions.
In the past month, 2 ordinary citizens, on separate occasions, stood up and openly criticized Bush and Rumsfeld to their faces. When they were about to be escorted from the audiance, Bush and Rumsfeld intervened, and insisted these to Americans be allowed to speak their minds. 2 of the most powerful men in the world gave way to open criticisim from 2 ordinary citizens. Now both of these incidences became fodder for the internet so all of you could have a good laugh. For me, and allot of other Americans, it showed the world just how great a country the United States of America truely is.
See...they have NO CHOICE in a public forum. These men work for us ordinary people. They god damn well better listen.
I pose a question:
Where did the color terror alert system go? Oh yeah....it hasn't been around since the last election when it was elevated. Hmmm.....it will probably show up again in 08' when Jeb runs. Its a wonderful tool.
that whole terror alert thing is stupid, im with you on that
You have got to be fucking kidding me. The blind "patriotism" you and others put on display here is sickening. This country is being slowly turned into a fascist state wether you "patriots" want to acknowledge it or not. And since when did it become a "great" country because ordinary citizens can openly criticize their leaders. Read the Bill of Rights you fucking fool.lowing wrote:
In the past month, 2 ordinary citizens, on separate occasions, stood up and openly criticized Bush and Rumsfeld to their faces. When they were about to be escorted from the audiance, Bush and Rumsfeld intervened, and insisted these to Americans be allowed to speak their minds. 2 of the most powerful men in the world gave way to open criticisim from 2 ordinary citizens. Now both of these incidences became fodder for the internet so all of you could have a good laugh. For me, and allot of other Americans, it showed the world just how great a country the United States of America truely is.
Ziggy, that is the point. The US is great because "ordinary" citizens can question the government without fear. The US will not become a fascist state because many good people are willing to stand up for justice. Believing in the Bill of Rights and supporting my, sometimes flawed but improving, country does not make me a "blind patriot." I would say the US become great right around 1787. (Before that, it was a lot of good ideas, but had no great way to impliment them.)
Last edited by RAIMIUS (2006-05-21 21:28:42)
the writting of the Bill of Rights is exactly when it became a great country. My patriotism isn't blind. I support the one thig that should be top priority now in our country, and that is the fact that there has not been a terror attack in the USA since 911, and this administration is the reason for it. If Bush is a fascist, then you can rest at night knowing elections are close at hand, so vote. <----another great thing about America.Ziggy_79x wrote:
You have got to be fucking kidding me. The blind "patriotism" you and others put on display here is sickening. This country is being slowly turned into a fascist state wether you "patriots" want to acknowledge it or not. And since when did it become a "great" country because ordinary citizens can openly criticize their leaders. Read the Bill of Rights you fucking fool.lowing wrote:
In the past month, 2 ordinary citizens, on separate occasions, stood up and openly criticized Bush and Rumsfeld to their faces. When they were about to be escorted from the audiance, Bush and Rumsfeld intervened, and insisted these to Americans be allowed to speak their minds. 2 of the most powerful men in the world gave way to open criticisim from 2 ordinary citizens. Now both of these incidences became fodder for the internet so all of you could have a good laugh. For me, and allot of other Americans, it showed the world just how great a country the United States of America truely is.
Other than your ranting, what proof can you show me that America is turning into a "fascist state"??? Proof mind you.......not your opinion
Last edited by lowing (2006-05-21 21:32:22)
I apologize I didn't make a clear point here. What I meant was that lowing made it sound like it was a great country because two of our leaders CHOSE to listen to ordinary citizens criticizing them when this is a citizens RIGHT under the Bill of Rights. But after the PATRIOT Act it seems like free speech is some kind of "special" freedom granted us by our "great" leaders. Thats what I got out of it and I'm sure that's what he meant. I myself don't believe this country will turn fascist because people are finally waking up and seeing what these people are trying to do to our country. I love America and I do support our country and the people that keep it safe for us. I just don't support our leaders that lie to us for the benefit of themselves and their buddys, nor those that blindly support them.
Edit: I have voted since I became of age and will continue to do so. Don't play that shit.
Edit: I have voted since I became of age and will continue to do so. Don't play that shit.
Last edited by Ziggy_79x (2006-05-21 21:40:36)
As I said in the 3rd post of this thread,Ziggy_79x wrote:
You have got to be fucking kidding me. The blind "patriotism" you and others put on display here is sickening. This country is being slowly turned into a fascist state wether you "patriots" want to acknowledge it or not. And since when did it become a "great" country because ordinary citizens can openly criticize their leaders. Read the Bill of Rights you fucking fool.lowing wrote:
In the past month, 2 ordinary citizens, on separate occasions, stood up and openly criticized Bush and Rumsfeld to their faces. When they were about to be escorted from the audiance, Bush and Rumsfeld intervened, and insisted these to Americans be allowed to speak their minds. 2 of the most powerful men in the world gave way to open criticisim from 2 ordinary citizens. Now both of these incidences became fodder for the internet so all of you could have a good laugh. For me, and allot of other Americans, it showed the world just how great a country the United States of America truely is.
Some Americans feel an intense sense of duty to the unfree world.
As some may have noticed, I am no Bush fan even though I voted for him twice.
What we are fighting for isn't Geaorge Bush or America.
It's about making the world a safer better place for everybody by spreading our brand of democracy. It's not patriotism to a country, it's loyalty to a concept, and that concept is called freedom.
( imagine me giving this speach ala Braveheart in front an army on horseback while waving a broadsword, and the mood will be set )
Nope, what I did was give the latest 2 great examples of what makes our country great and unique. Our leaders have always given way to the voices of the ordinary citizens, not just Bush.Ziggy_79x wrote:
I apologize I didn't make a clear point here. What I meant was that lowing made it sound like it was a great country because two of our leaders CHOSE to listen to ordinary citizens criticizing them when this is a citizens RIGHT under the Bill of Rights. But after the PATRIOT Act it seems like free speech is some kind of "special" freedom granted us by our "great" leaders. Thats what I got out of it and I'm sure that's what he meant. I myself don't believe this country will turn fascist because people are finally waking up and seeing what these people are trying to do to our country. I love America and I do support our country and the people that keep it safe for us. I just don't support our leaders that lie to us for the benefit of themselves and their buddys, nor those that blindly support them.
Edit: I have voted since I became of age and will continue to do so. Don't play that shit.
Hmmmmm you vote, yet you do not recognize the sacrifices made, in the name of freedom that gave you the right to do so?? you vote.....and still don't agree how great a country we are??....How ironically sad
What you and every other confused person needs to imagine is that you are an Iraqi citizen before the war. Yes, times are rough under Saddam and you barely scrape by by selling chickens that you pluck and slaughter yourself. You have a loving wife and a beautiful daughter. Things could be better but this is your life. Now, the U.S. military invades your country, first under the premise that your leader has weapons that threaten other people in the world, and when that excuse dosen't pan out it changes to "it's for your freedom", but in the process a stray bomb or cruise missile blows up your house and kills your wife and daughter. Honestly, as bad as things were, would you think that the lives of your family are worth what is going on now? Your wife and daughter are gone and you feel like you have nothing to live for. And a trip to the market, or anywhere else for that matter is like playing russian roulette because of all the suicide bombers who feel because of their religion this is the only solution to oppose having foreign military in their country. Think about it. Would you think losing all this is worth the freedom that some foreign country tells you that they are giving you. It isn't right, and if some foreign country invaded your hometown and killed your love ones in the name of "freedom" I think you would feel differently. We sit in our air conditioned houses watching tv and think that we have the right to fuck with other peoples lives that had nothing to do with the attacks on us. Fuck your ego.yerded wrote:
( imagine me giving this speach ala Braveheart in front an army on horseback while waving a broadsword, and the mood will be set )
Well that explains your understanding....rh27 wrote:
(Not being sarcastic, I actually don't know how elections work in the USA)
you forgot to add in there that chances are you wife and daughter were probably raped and tortured by Uday and Qusay ( saddam sons) before the invasion of the coalition and that if you were a Kurd, you probably were already long dead from genocide before the invasion. Shall we go on??Ziggy_79x wrote:
What you and every other confused person needs to imagine is that you are an Iraqi citizen before the war. Yes, times are rough under Saddam and you barely scrape by by selling chickens that you pluck and slaughter yourself. You have a loving wife and a beautiful daughter. Things could be better but this is your life. Now, the U.S. military invades your country, first under the premise that your leader has weapons that threaten other people in the world, and when that excuse dosen't pan out it changes to "it's for your freedom", but in the process a stray bomb or cruise missile blows up your house and kills your wife and daughter. Honestly, as bad as things were, would you think that the lives of your family are worth what is going on now? Your wife and daughter are gone and you feel like you have nothing to live for. And a trip to the market, or anywhere else for that matter is like playing russian roulette because of all the suicide bombers who feel because of their religion this is the only solution to oppose having foreign military in their country. Think about it. Would you think losing all this is worth the freedom that some foreign country tells you that they are giving you. It isn't right, and if some foreign country invaded your hometown and killed your love ones in the name of "freedom" I think you would feel differently. We sit in our air conditioned houses watching tv and think that we have the right to fuck with other peoples lives that had nothing to do with the attacks on us. Fuck your ego.yerded wrote:
( imagine me giving this speach ala Braveheart in front an army on horseback while waving a broadsword, and the mood will be set )
Yes the polls, these polls are meaningless and you know it......Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
They put themselves in the lose/ lose, not me. Politicians have agendas. They hardly have to do with you or me. They have to keep a face for us regular people regardless of the shit behind the scenes. So Rumsfeld and Bush and Cheney for that matter have no choice in public forums; they will eat shit for 5 minutes and go back to the links after the speech. Brush it off. They went from no one speaking out against them years ago, (if you did you get castrated....similar to these forums) to having a few speak out and saying "well.....fuck it we can deal with a few." The numbers have tanked in the polls. Ordinary people are (GASP) questioning the Prez.lowing wrote:
Well it is this exact lose, lose scenario that this administration has to put up with from people like you....The man had 2 choices, let them speak or have them removed, and there you are poised to criticise BOTH.Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
On another note, what would Bush, Rumsfeld or the Admin look like if they HADN'T let them speak?
See...they have NO CHOICE in a public forum. These men work for us ordinary people. They god damn well better listen.
I pose a question:
Where did the color terror alert system go? Oh yeah....it hasn't been around since the last election when it was elevated. Hmmm.....it will probably show up again in 08' when Jeb runs. Its a wonderful tool.
Yes, master of knowledge, I had no clue who Uday and Qusay were and I appreaciate your explination. Your opinion of your own knowledge and the "Horseman77" round and round game that you play trying to sound smart dosen't mean shit to me. So when are we going invade Africa and give every country with an abusive and murderous dictator "freedom". Because thats why we are in Iraq right? Right? Yep.....
Oh, By the way, Uday and Qusay would be the equivalent of serial killers here in the states. But you don't and won't give a shit until they prey on someone you know or love. Neither did the Iraqis. Shall we go on?
Oh, By the way, Uday and Qusay would be the equivalent of serial killers here in the states. But you don't and won't give a shit until they prey on someone you know or love. Neither did the Iraqis. Shall we go on?
Last edited by Ziggy_79x (2006-05-21 22:15:59)
Right, the Americans were against Iraq to start with. You know, just in case you missed the massive protests across the country. And then there were all of the other countries who were protesting America violating UN rulings about invading Iraq. You ask why the UN is weak? The same reason the league of Nations was weak, its most powerful member just ignores its decisions when they arnt in its favour, and you expect everyone else to follow it? As for Vietnam, it was also extremely unpopular. What everyone seems to forget is that not only were hippys protesting it, so was the US army. Were talking on the order of half a million deserters, as well as hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the field refusing to fight. Whole regiments would refuse orders to fight at a time. But of course you have probably never heard of the military protesting the war, have you? Thats probably because of a systematic campaign of misinformation about it that started way back with Nixon. Hippys spitting on self sacrificing soldiers? It accutally never happened, that was a lie that Nixon spread through doctored photos to divide the military and civilan peace movements.Lib-Sl@yer wrote:
In the beginning people were for that. READ YOUR HISTORY! People were for vietnam to stop communism. they were for iraq to stop WMD's and the fascist regiem of saddam hussein. Now that we are bringing democracy to the middle east we are hopping for a domino effect to the rest of the countries. Also if you look at veitnam, only the hippes wanted out and "no war". They were too stoned to remember anything. As for iraq people still think we need to be at peace, all those teenage hippes are now adults, so they are trying to stop this just like they tried to stop vietnam. ITS THE SAME PEOPLE.JohnnyBlanco wrote:
no ya don't. Iraq, Vietnam?
Just like what everyone thinks that dosen't agree with you, your highness, bastion of knowledge, seeker of truth, "decider" of justice.lowing wrote:
Yes the polls, these polls are meaningless and you know it......
...hook, line, and sinker lmfao
You let this twit do to you what he wanted to do in the first place - divide us!
He baited you on each response and all of you swallowed the hook.
This is the type of person, imho, who get's off on these issues {his little soldier just wilted reading this...}.
Twit's like this start debates by seeming to leave almost intelligent debate points and escalate them to fuel their own self-motivated perversions. This guy is a twit and his only ability, and probably only accomplishment, in life is to stir the pot.
We are all fine, no one is more right than the other, and don't forget - we are humans first.
Noticed how we all "fought" to defend our beliefs and opinions - it was great!
To that wonderful twit who started this thread - thank you - no worries about Fascism here.
You let this twit do to you what he wanted to do in the first place - divide us!
He baited you on each response and all of you swallowed the hook.
This is the type of person, imho, who get's off on these issues {his little soldier just wilted reading this...}.
Twit's like this start debates by seeming to leave almost intelligent debate points and escalate them to fuel their own self-motivated perversions. This guy is a twit and his only ability, and probably only accomplishment, in life is to stir the pot.
We are all fine, no one is more right than the other, and don't forget - we are humans first.
Noticed how we all "fought" to defend our beliefs and opinions - it was great!
To that wonderful twit who started this thread - thank you - no worries about Fascism here.
Wow, Iraq and Vietnam.. Extremely sensitive subjects to Americans..
When these things are discussed, "Debate and Serious Talk" often turn into something else.
However, Lib-Sl@yer:
Where are the Iraqian WMD:s you speak about? Why hasn't the US gotten rid of their own?
Why was Vietnam lost? Could it be that "liberating people" is the wrong term. When the majority of the population decides to help the "evil commies", aka the VC aka the guerilla-underground, who IS on the right side? If the civilian population helps the rebel guerillas it seems that they don't want to be "liberated" by the invading countrys forces.
I know, we all know that Saddam is and was an oppressor, murderer, dictator, asshole and whatnot. But wasn't HE the "liberator" once? Funded by the US, nonetheless?
Maybe the war didn't go as planned, because of false motives. War on terror, WMD:s etc. Couldn't the cause have been: "Saddam has been in power for too long and is oppressing a portion of his people, this is why he has to go"? Would that have motivated the military, and most importantly the civilian population of Iraq? Because they have to build up from the ruins and start over, the whole process could be a lot more smooth when they do it with a motivation and vision of a potentially better future.
Where am I going with this? I.. don't.. know..
Oh yeah, the topic is a question, kinda.
Might be. Forcing a belief is fascist. Maybe crusading in the Middle East is a prelude to dictatorship on a global scale? Then again, we must be thankful that one man can be president in the US for only two seasons. Many people outside the States are wondering, "When did the land of the free turn into that?". Fascism has existed since day one. Hitlers Germany, Stalins Soviet Union, Mussolinis Italy, Saddams Iraq, Louis XIV:s France, Batistas Cuba..
So maybe the answer is that the world is fascist. And also that a country as a whole isn't fascist, but rather its leader. And leaders are always temporary.
Someone will always try to persuade the other to his ideology.
When these things are discussed, "Debate and Serious Talk" often turn into something else.
However, Lib-Sl@yer:
Where are the Iraqian WMD:s you speak about? Why hasn't the US gotten rid of their own?
Why was Vietnam lost? Could it be that "liberating people" is the wrong term. When the majority of the population decides to help the "evil commies", aka the VC aka the guerilla-underground, who IS on the right side? If the civilian population helps the rebel guerillas it seems that they don't want to be "liberated" by the invading countrys forces.
I know, we all know that Saddam is and was an oppressor, murderer, dictator, asshole and whatnot. But wasn't HE the "liberator" once? Funded by the US, nonetheless?
Maybe the war didn't go as planned, because of false motives. War on terror, WMD:s etc. Couldn't the cause have been: "Saddam has been in power for too long and is oppressing a portion of his people, this is why he has to go"? Would that have motivated the military, and most importantly the civilian population of Iraq? Because they have to build up from the ruins and start over, the whole process could be a lot more smooth when they do it with a motivation and vision of a potentially better future.
Where am I going with this? I.. don't.. know..
Oh yeah, the topic is a question, kinda.
Might be. Forcing a belief is fascist. Maybe crusading in the Middle East is a prelude to dictatorship on a global scale? Then again, we must be thankful that one man can be president in the US for only two seasons. Many people outside the States are wondering, "When did the land of the free turn into that?". Fascism has existed since day one. Hitlers Germany, Stalins Soviet Union, Mussolinis Italy, Saddams Iraq, Louis XIV:s France, Batistas Cuba..
So maybe the answer is that the world is fascist. And also that a country as a whole isn't fascist, but rather its leader. And leaders are always temporary.
Someone will always try to persuade the other to his ideology.
Last edited by DonFck (2006-05-22 02:17:39)
I need around tree fiddy.
nope not at all, poll numbers change with the wind direction, my stance on how I feel about my country doesn'tZiggy_79x wrote:
Just like what everyone thinks that dosen't agree with you, your highness, bastion of knowledge, seeker of truth, "decider" of justice.lowing wrote:
Yes the polls, these polls are meaningless and you know it......
Some would call that stubbornness
Bubbalo: "Some would call that stubbornness"
Maybe he has backed up his oppinion with fact, history, thought etc. that just doesn't change overnight or as he switches the tv-channel and watches a different propaganda program?!?
We might never know.
#edit: spelling
Maybe he has backed up his oppinion with fact, history, thought etc. that just doesn't change overnight or as he switches the tv-channel and watches a different propaganda program?!?
We might never know.
#edit: spelling
Last edited by Krisgebis (2006-05-22 05:33:42)
I was actually joking, given that him and I are both about as unlikely to change our minds. I should have added a smiley. And yes, you're right, unlike some he provides reasoning to his thoughts.
Its the few liberals that are the threat to this country. How many times have laws been passed that have roots in California? Just like the No guns withing city limits in san fran. But boy The criminals sure have them though. Give me a break on all this crap. I applaud the Graduates of colleges who arnt buying into the lefts teachings and rantings.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Does any of the research or observations noted and linked on the page above worry you? Do you think that it's all nonsense, and that there have never been more freedoms than there are today? Do you think the elections would be better if they were always rigged to give victory to the right, and anyone central or left wing is a traitor who wants to destroy your way of life?Doug Soderstrom
Common Dreams
http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/fascism.htm
wrote:
"In Hitler’s Germany there was a determined effort to brainwash the people so they might support Mein Fuhrer’s efforts to conquer the world. However, what if one were to suggest that much the same is occurring in the United States of America, that there has been a determined effort through the socializing influence of our schools, the government, the mass media, the churches we attend, even that of our own parents, to pressure us into believing (just as Hitler) that our country has received the blessing of God, and because of this, we therefore have not only the right, but more importantly, through the use of military weapons, a divine responsibility to see that the world acquiesces to our needs and expectations. Just as Hitler in the 1930’s prepared his countrymen to accept the authoritarian control of the Nazi government, much the same may well be occurring in the United States."
Or do you think that the danger is real, and that more and more freedoms are being compromised for the 'greater good', whilst propaganda proclaims the exact opposite? Do you believe that fascism speading from within is a far greater threat to freedom than terrorist attacks?
Discuss.
I say, that if it is the case that the US is following in Hitlers footsteps, we should stop ALL aid to ALL forign countries and start taking care of our own. If were going to be looked apon like this by the liberal world, we might as well do it right!
Your comment is meaningless. Try challenging some other parts of my response. The polls meant something when they were favoring Bush. Now they mean nothing. ok.....lowing wrote:
Yes the polls, these polls are meaningless and you know it......Mason4Assassin444 wrote:
They put themselves in the lose/ lose, not me. Politicians have agendas. They hardly have to do with you or me. They have to keep a face for us regular people regardless of the shit behind the scenes. So Rumsfeld and Bush and Cheney for that matter have no choice in public forums; they will eat shit for 5 minutes and go back to the links after the speech. Brush it off. They went from no one speaking out against them years ago, (if you did you get castrated....similar to these forums) to having a few speak out and saying "well.....fuck it we can deal with a few." The numbers have tanked in the polls. Ordinary people are (GASP) questioning the Prez.lowing wrote:
Well it is this exact lose, lose scenario that this administration has to put up with from people like you....The man had 2 choices, let them speak or have them removed, and there you are poised to criticise BOTH.
I pose a question:
Where did the color terror alert system go? Oh yeah....it hasn't been around since the last election when it was elevated. Hmmm.....it will probably show up again in 08' when Jeb runs. Its a wonderful tool.
Just know his support has now dipped into the 20% range. It means nothing though. Nixon was the only other President with such low numbers.....funny....look how he ended up.
Before it became clear that the administration was not being forthright, the vast majority of Americans were in favor of action there. The protests early on were a pale shadow of their '60s parallels. As far as other countries go, the US does not exist to service the desires of other countries when those desires are deemed contrary to our national interest. Sorry.Kibbick wrote:
Right, the Americans were against Iraq to start with. You know, just in case you missed the massive protests across the country. And then there were all of the other countries who were protesting America violating UN rulings about invading Iraq.
I want to make it clear that I am not a supporter of the Bush administration. You need only look up my past comments regarding Bush for this to be clear. Nevertheless, the History of UN action with respect to Iraq is telling. Over ten years of resolutions ordering Iraq to comply, and over ten years of Iraq telling them to get stuffed (in varying degrees - they were never 100% compliant). As it turns out, Saddam's obdurance was for political reasons (he felt it made him appear strong in the face of the evil west), but only an idiot would have discounted the possibility that he might have had something he didn't want found. The time scale for action on the Iraq issue (over 10 years and still, no effective action) is as much of an illustration of UN weakness as one should ever need.Kibbick wrote:
You ask why the UN is weak? The same reason the league of Nations was weak, its most powerful member just ignores its decisions when they arnt in its favour, and you expect everyone else to follow it?
The misinformation is what you are spreading here. I have done significant research regarding the Vietnam war (graduate level history) and I have never heard of desertions on even a fraction of the scale you are talking about here. Furthermore, I have read many personal accounts of soldiers mistreated by people here when they got back home ('Nam and Homecoming are books that come to mind, but there are many others). Sounds to me like someone with an axe to grind fed you some BS story and you bought it hook line and sinker.Kibbick wrote:
As for Vietnam, it was also extremely unpopular. What everyone seems to forget is that not only were hippys protesting it, so was the US army. Were talking on the order of half a million deserters, as well as hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the field refusing to fight. Whole regiments would refuse orders to fight at a time. But of course you have probably never heard of the military protesting the war, have you? Thats probably because of a systematic campaign of misinformation about it that started way back with Nixon. Hippys spitting on self sacrificing soldiers? It accutally never happened, that was a lie that Nixon spread through doctored photos to divide the military and civilan peace movements.
The majority of the population didn't decide to help the VC or NVA any more than they decided to help us. On some occasions they were impressed into service with the VC, but that isn't really the same as volunteering is it? Most Vietnamese probably wished to be left alone. Unfortunately it wasn't to be so. In 1975, after the North invaded the South, tens of thousands were killed because of who they were, who they knew, and in many cases, because of what they owned (land). Hundreds of thousands more were re-educated, or fled the country (Boat People). That isn't really the kind of reaction you would expect from a welcomed liberator for the people who had been supporting them, is it? Perhaps the people weren't 'helping the rebel guerillas' as you suggest.DonFck wrote:
Why was Vietnam lost? Could it be that "liberating people" is the wrong term. When the majority of the population decides to help the "evil commies", aka the VC aka the guerilla-underground, who IS on the right side? If the civilian population helps the rebel guerillas it seems that they don't want to be "liberated" by the invading countrys forces.
Can we stop making up history now?
Last edited by whittsend (2006-05-22 10:21:23)