BF2S Forums Why we're working our young people too hard

-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:

It's true that some kids are pushed too hard. You should be able to have some fun in your teens, not be a slave to academia.

You have to have balance in all things. School is especially the case. I seem to remember that HaiBai fucked off for a lot of freshman and sophomore years (and junior?), only to turn it around at the end, which probably meant doing more than would typically be expected in the final semesters to make up for the slow start. That would explain why he related to the article.

If you push yourself too hard in highschool, it's easy to get burnt out, and that makes it hard to even find the motivation to do all that. The smartest kid from my highschool (his physician father made him read the dictionary every night, which should tell you everything you need to know) dropped out of Harvard and became a bartender. You have to have fun when you're young, because it's really, really fleeting.

But you can have a girlfriend, work part time, and be a full time college student and still have a little bit of time for hobbies. You will be more well-rounded if you do. A lot of that can come through in interview processes when you look for work, post-graduate programs, etc...a very smart, well-rounded 3.0-3.5 GPA student is infinitely more valuable in almost every job sector, compared to some shut-in 4.0 GPA kid with an eidetic memory.

yeah, i fucked up freshman and sophomore year.  i got a 4.0 junior year for normal classes, and decided to challenge myself with honors/AP for this year.  i have to admit, if i had at least a 3.8 GPA, rather then my shitty 3.1 right now, i would be taking much easier classes.

Cybargs wrote:

HaiBai wrote:

was just googling about the reverse engineering career.  look what i found:

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Reverse+En … 4130%2C000

for example: ffs, i have half of the requirements to apply for this job:

http://www.sologig.com/INTL/JobSeeker/J … NDEEDORGSG

You MUST have for this position:

-3 years minimum experience in the following areas:
-Experience working with debuggers and disassemblers
-Experience developing code in x86 and x86_64 assembly0 (sort of, but i'm not competent enough. yet.)
-Experience developing code in C for Windows and Linux
-Experience with PE file formats
-B.S. Computer Science, Electrical Engineering or related discipline
-Top Secret, Security Clearance with Full Scope Polygraph

Preferred for the position:

-Experience with malware analysis
-Experience with vulnerability analysis
-Experience with cryptographic systems (sort of, but i doubt i know enough to meet their requirements)
-Familiarity with binary obfuscation techniques such as packers

i mean, they're paying 100k-150k for that.  i'd love to be able to sit at my computer and reverse engineer programs all day.  it's my dream job

GL getting TS clearance without getting in the military first. You should ask FEOS about getting TS clearance, shit aint exactly easy. oh and they want people with a degree as well

yeah, i don't even know what TS clearance is or why i would need that.  just found some random job on the internet.  honestly, i wouldn't mind working for the military as long as it related to my industry.  in fact, i think it'd be pretty cool.  but, i couldn't really see myself joining the military as a soldier

Cybargs wrote:

HaiBai wrote:

was just googling about the reverse engineering career.  look what i found:

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Reverse+En … 4130%2C000

for example: ffs, i have half of the requirements to apply for this job:

http://www.sologig.com/INTL/JobSeeker/J … NDEEDORGSG

You MUST have for this position:

-3 years minimum experience in the following areas:
-Experience working with debuggers and disassemblers
-Experience developing code in x86 and x86_64 assembly0 (sort of, but i'm not competent enough. yet.)
-Experience developing code in C for Windows and Linux
-Experience with PE file formats
-B.S. Computer Science, Electrical Engineering or related discipline
-Top Secret, Security Clearance with Full Scope Polygraph

Preferred for the position:

-Experience with malware analysis
-Experience with vulnerability analysis
-Experience with cryptographic systems (sort of, but i doubt i know enough to meet their requirements)
-Familiarity with binary obfuscation techniques such as packers

i mean, they're paying 100k-150k for that.  i'd love to be able to sit at my computer and reverse engineer programs all day.  it's my dream job

GL getting TS clearance without getting in the military first. You should ask FEOS about getting TS clearance, shit aint exactly easy. oh and they want people with a degree as well

TS clearance is not hard to get, depending on the level of clearance you need. I know a few people that had to get clearance when they worked at Raytheon. Wasn't hard at all

HaiBai wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

if you go AF in a tech field especially anti-hack with a language spec (go learn russian, close enough to polish). airforce will suck your dick for people with tech skills, and after you get out you'd just go with a higher payed civilian job. BTW when they say experience, they mean already working 3 years in a company with those skills.

meh, that's why when i'm starting out i can just do an internship to prove that i know what i'm doing.  if not, i don't mind looking at other positions.

btw, do you have a link for more information about the AF?  i was trying to find some info but couldn't really find anything in "anti-hack".

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce … /3d0x3.htm

ken: depends a lot on family background, if youre an average 3rd gen+ american, you'd usually get TS without much problems but they'd interview the shit out of people who knew you. when cougar was in AF, they asked some guy he never heard about but was in his class in the third grade lol... But then again Bradley Manning fucked up getting TS for a lot of people.

HaiBai wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

HaiBai wrote:

was just googling about the reverse engineering career.  look what i found:

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Reverse+En … 4130%2C000

for example: ffs, i have half of the requirements to apply for this job:

http://www.sologig.com/INTL/JobSeeker/J … NDEEDORGSG


i mean, they're paying 100k-150k for that.  i'd love to be able to sit at my computer and reverse engineer programs all day.  it's my dream job

GL getting TS clearance without getting in the military first. You should ask FEOS about getting TS clearance, shit aint exactly easy. oh and they want people with a degree as well

yeah, i don't even know what TS clearance is or why i would need that.  just found some random job on the internet.  honestly, i wouldn't mind working for the military as long as it related to my industry.  in fact, i think it'd be pretty cool.  but, i couldn't really see myself joining the military as a soldier

That's obviously a gubmint gig. Looked like it was in the MD area, so probably associated with NSA, based on the polygraph requirement.

I work with an entire organization that does reverse engineering. They are some very skilled people.

Tripulaci0n wrote:

Going to college is not just about getting a degree so that you can mark off a box on the checklist for employment. It's about becoming a more worldly and educated person.

A few days ago Washington Post wrote that China would be eliminating their subsidies to "degrees that don't get jobs". Basically all of their liberal arts. In a developing country that will have a serious chilling effect on any sort of education outside of engineering and other highly technical degrees. While China may be trying to grow their economy to match the West at all cost, they seem to not understand why the west built the system they are playing in the way it did. It wasn't because the west thought that the person with the biggest bank account is the winner but it came down to cultural, religion, and general life enjoyment. The Chinese world view seems to be the one Haibai and some other of the engineer crew on the forum have. The "fuck everything else, I want to make money" mindset. That point of making money isn't to make money. The point is to spend on enjoying yourself.

This reminds of the whole 'City of Pigs' discussion that was in Plato's republic. Of course you wouldn't be able to discuss whether Socrates or Glaucon was right if you kept your head down and focused only on engineering your whole life.

I like this video.



The full lecture is worth a watch too but this is the gist of it.

Ilocano wrote:

Ty wrote:

I like this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

The full lecture is worth a watch too but this is the gist of it.

Collaboration is all well and good, but in reality, it's not all happy, happy joy, all for one, hoorah for new idea from all fronts.  Reality is, some people are just better than other people at doing certain things.  Come collaboration, key people will still contribute the most, while the stragglers get a free ride.  I'm actually involved with a web collaboration project.  I'm bringing my Corporate application experience to the table.  At the academic level, take science projects.  There will always be one person who will do the majority of the work, while the second or third member gets a free ride.

I agree with you; collaboration rarely works like it should. The video does, however, state that many approaches to learning should be allowed, and that if students want to work alone that's their prerogative.

Macbeth wrote:

Tripulaci0n wrote:

Going to college is not just about getting a degree so that you can mark off a box on the checklist for employment. It's about becoming a more worldly and educated person.

A few days ago Washington Post wrote that China would be eliminating their subsidies to "degrees that don't get jobs". Basically all of their liberal arts. In a developing country that will have a serious chilling effect on any sort of education outside of engineering and other highly technical degrees. While China may be trying to grow their economy to match the West at all cost, they seem to not understand why the west built the system they are playing in the way it did. It wasn't because the west thought that the person with the biggest bank account is the winner but it came down to cultural, religion, and general life enjoyment. The Chinese world view seems to be the one Haibai and some other of the engineer crew on the forum have. The "fuck everything else, I want to make money" mindset. That point of making money isn't to make money. The point is to spend on enjoying yourself.

This reminds of the whole 'City of Pigs' discussion that was in Plato's republic. Of course you wouldn't be able to discuss whether Socrates or Glaucon was right if you kept your head down and focused only on engineering your whole life.

The Chinese have been cutting academic subsidies for 15-20 years. I think it speaks more to the mindset of the students/future employees more than anything. Chinese policy is largely reactive, not proactive. The subsidy cuts were more to deal with the fact chinese people were getting a free education and then going to work out f country, not because those majors didn't make enough money.  Plus the amount of jobs for those respective majors went down, especially anything non-advanced technology related (the Chinese government does actively recruit and subsidize advanced technology).

I think the gap in Chinese mentality comes from the idea that you can force your kid/subjects to learn culture. Want them to be up to date on classical art? Force them into piano lessons and humanities classes. Culture, life, humanities, philosophy aren't learned by rote memorization, unfortunate for the Chinese. Taught what to think, instead of how to think

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Tripulaci0n wrote:

Going to college is not just about getting a degree so that you can mark off a box on the checklist for employment. It's about becoming a more worldly and educated person.

A few days ago Washington Post wrote that China would be eliminating their subsidies to "degrees that don't get jobs". Basically all of their liberal arts. In a developing country that will have a serious chilling effect on any sort of education outside of engineering and other highly technical degrees. While China may be trying to grow their economy to match the West at all cost, they seem to not understand why the west built the system they are playing in the way it did. It wasn't because the west thought that the person with the biggest bank account is the winner but it came down to cultural, religion, and general life enjoyment. The Chinese world view seems to be the one Haibai and some other of the engineer crew on the forum have. The "fuck everything else, I want to make money" mindset. That point of making money isn't to make money. The point is to spend on enjoying yourself.

This reminds of the whole 'City of Pigs' discussion that was in Plato's republic. Of course you wouldn't be able to discuss whether Socrates or Glaucon was right if you kept your head down and focused only on engineering your whole life.

The Chinese have been cutting academic subsidies for 15-20 years. I think it speaks more to the mindset of the students/future employees more than anything. Chinese policy is largely reactive, not proactive. The subsidy cuts were more to deal with the fact chinese people were getting a free education and then going to work out f country, not because those majors didn't make enough money.  Plus the amount of jobs for those respective majors went down, especially anything non-advanced technology related (the Chinese government does actively recruit and subsidize advanced technology).

I think the gap in Chinese mentality comes from the idea that you can force your kid/subjects to learn culture. Want them to be up to date on classical art? Force them into piano lessons and humanities classes. Culture, life, humanities, philosophy aren't learned by rote memorization, unfortunate for the Chinese. Taught what to think, instead of how to think

Uuuuunfortunately coming from a almost-Chinese culture, I can say this is very true and also very annoying. Done my best to break out of it personally.

'best college possible' meaning what exactly?  Maybe your mistaking perceived prestige for a good education.

honestly, just be as balanced as possible and excel in everything until college level. then, obviously, you've got to specialise to get anywhere. is it really "working too hard" to demand of young people that they take an interest (and thus gain easy rudimentary qualifications) in all things? i don't think so. do well in math, science, english, sport, social. then take a specialism of your choice at college-- it's pretty easy, really. don't dismiss "analysing hamlet" as being useless, because it's obviously not, and that sort of bigotry won't benefit you at all in later life. it never hurts to be good at everything, you know. as somebody said earlier, nobody wants to employ the super-geek that has sat in their mum's basement doing one thing and letting everything else slip by the wayside. at college, study hard at what you do and appreciate/respect that everyone else had made their own choice of (ultra-)specialisation (it intensifies as the level of higher-education increases, obviously), and that they are developing a completely different skillset to you. but you still need the basics in being able to be social, and the basics (i.e. up to that high-school level) in the other core subjects you didn't take (i.e. science undergrads shouldn't be non-reading, non-listening fucking plebes, and english undergrads shouldn't fail at basic algebra or science knowledge).

a successful workforce depends on well rounded candidates, imo. the whole education system gets completely undermined if it just becomes this conveyor-belt for churning out single-cog machines for a specific vocational purpose. haibai, you sound a little too cocksure and confident that you're going to want to be a computer programmer for the rest of your life... but maybe you won't be. don't put all of your eggs in one basket. you may think you know it all now, but you've barely started your working life / career. shit may change.

i got a 4 on APUSH and studied for one day, also got a 780 on the US history SAT II and studied for about an hour