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Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

The same way capitalism is rational fascism.

I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.

What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.

So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.

I don't think you fully understand what communism entails. It's not a matter of degrees as much as completely different systems. (capitalist democracies, social democracies, fascist states, communist etc.). It's not as simple as moving in one direction.

In the European social democracies have they deestablished personal property? How many political parties are there? Are they not controlled by wealthy individuals? Can you still run a business for profit? Have churches been banned? Etc. There's much more to Marxism than you know or understand.

usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc

We are much less socialized than Europe and those are considered a function of our government.

Yes, they have de-established personal property, the only property that truly matters: a persons time. Tax rates are simply representations of your time and effort, repossessed by the government, and put to whatever ends they desire. So in a nation like Norway, they repossess 40% of the time and effort you would normally spend on yourself. They arbitrarily decide when you have enough, and redistribute the rest.

The number of political parties is irrelevant when they all work towards the same ends. Is there any real difference between Republicans and Democrats? No, not really. They both want to expand the functions and power of government, they just disagree on the path.

Churches haven't been banned but they've done their best to marginalize religion and push it to the edges. Even the Soviets ended up tolerating a certain amount of religion because it was counterproductive to completely destroy it.

I understand Marxism quite well, thanks. You, however, do not. Your half semester of study has left you woefully unprepared to see the big picture outside of whatever ideological parameters your professor placed the discussion.

Edit - Also, the biggest destroyer of personal property is property tax. Try not paying your property taxes - property seized by government. Try not 'maintaining your property' - eminent domained, seized, bulldozed. You don't own shit. The government owns everything.

Last edited by Jay (2011-11-28 08:33:57)

BALTINS wrote:

And why, because if we we were capable, we may as well could continue living in capitalism.

Capable of what exactly, and who are 'we'?

Capitalism works perfectly well for some, but it exploits so many others. That is why many would prefer living in a communist society.

Jay wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

BALTINS wrote:

Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.

The whole idea of "Communism doesn't work" is what I'm getting at - why are we so dogmatically stating that communism will never work? You cannot just say that without a fucking seriously well-formed argument behind it. You say "People are lazy, greedy and cheap", but many will at the same time say that people from some cultures fill that description more than others. How can you then say that laziness and greed are intrinsically a part of human nature - how can you ignore and refute any idea that this may have come about as a product of our social structure?

I'd argue that capitalism breeds a desire for fortune (greed), and greed breeds capitalism. That doesn't mean it is human destiny or nature.

And as for socialism being communism.... lol. What Macbeth said - it isn't even close.

Jens, if you tried to strap me into a communistic system I wouldn't work. Or, I'd work just as hard as necessary to not get shot (because you will resort to killing off the useless eventually, how else will you motivate the rest to work?). So would most people. The system benefits the bottom feeders excessively which demotivates the above average which drive every society. How would you motivate people to work? Guilt?

I think that's because you are born and bred in a capitalist society that promotes greed. Doesn't mean it's the only society that can ever work.

And coming from a rich kid whose parents are paying for him to attend a private university in a foreign country... that's too funny.

Jay wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jens, if you tried to strap me into a communistic system I wouldn't work. Or, I'd work just as hard as necessary to not get shot (because you will resort to killing off the useless eventually, how else will you motivate the rest to work?). So would most people. The system benefits the bottom feeders excessively which demotivates the above average which drive every society. How would you motivate people to work? Guilt?

I think that's because you are born and bred in a capitalist society that promotes greed. Doesn't mean it's the only society that can ever work.

Greed? How about fairness? How about I keep what I earn? Why is it noble for me to work harder than the man next to me but receive an equal reward? Motivate me to continue working harder than him. Motivate me to work even at a fraction of what he is doing if it means that I still receive the same reward. Solve that, and you can have your utopia. Good luck.

there are actual people on earth, galt, that are not motivated by this crap, believe it or not. for some there are things worth considering which fall outside your primitive "food, reproduction, domination over the likes of me" mindset. what you and many others do not get - incapable of getting it seems or simply afraid to admit - is that communism actually worked for some people. you know, real people, not talking animals like yourself. where the free and the brave are still indulging the animals hoping that maybe one day you stop hanging from the trees and start behaving like actual sentient beings, bolsheviks went in other direction - they placed the animals within orderly environments and waited hoping for them to change. granted, that was just about as stupid as you feeding the fucking beast even though it doesn't change it one bit, but bolsheviks were actually successful with some of their subjects. you of course have never seen such a person because the people i'm talking about didn't run when "freedom and democracy" ensued in soviet union, but they are there - they remained and even now if anyone is still trying to keep this god forsaken country going it's those people.

so, do us all a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by posting this crap why don't you.

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.

So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.

I don't think you fully understand what communism entails. It's not a matter of degrees as much as completely different systems. (capitalist democracies, social democracies, fascist states, communist etc.). It's not as simple as moving in one direction.

In the European social democracies have they deestablished personal property? How many political parties are there? Are they not controlled by wealthy individuals? Can you still run a business for profit? Have churches been banned? Etc. There's much more to Marxism than you know or understand.

usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc

We are much less socialized than Europe and those are considered a function of our government.

Yes, they have de-established personal property, the only property that truly matters: a persons time. Tax rates are simply representations of your time and effort, repossessed by the government, and put to whatever ends they desire. So in a nation like Norway, they repossess 40% of the time and effort you would normally spend on yourself. They arbitrarily decide when you have enough, and redistribute the rest.

The number of political parties is irrelevant when they all work towards the same ends. Is there any real difference between Republicans and Democrats? No, not really. They both want to expand the functions and power of government, they just disagree on the path.

Churches haven't been banned but they've done their best to marginalize religion and push it to the edges. Even the Soviets ended up tolerating a certain amount of religion because it was counterproductive to completely destroy it.

I understand Marxism quite well, thanks. You, however, do not. Your half semester of study has left you woefully unprepared to see the big picture outside of whatever ideological parameters your professor placed the discussion.

Edit - Also, the biggest destroyer of personal property is property tax. Try not paying your property taxes - property seized by government. Try not 'maintaining your property' - eminent domained, seized, bulldozed. You don't own shit. The government owns everything.

In regards to religion and political parties in European social democracies- I think you need to look up something called "political culture". Religion isn't marginalized in the political realm in all of Europe either buddy.

As for your argument about tax rates- how is Norway's 40% tax rate more treading towards communism than our 30%? This is a dumb argument to make.

Marxism came up way more than half a semester in my studies. Since it has been one of, if not the most, world shaping philosophies to come out the 1800's. I have had my classes deal with the political side of Marxism, the highly debunked economic side, and the ethical side of Marxism. Three different fields but all dealing with Marxism.

Now tell me how much have you studied Marxism? Or is this you just pretending to know what you are talking about because you are such a libertarian genius who reads reason.com.

Macbeth wrote:

Stick to engineering discussions. Philosophy is out of your realm.

You get your wish. You are now the only person I have on ignore.

Macbeth wrote:

Only fags use ignore. Someone quote me.

Jenspm wrote:

The whole idea of "Communism doesn't work" is what I'm getting at - why are we so dogmatically stating that communism will never work? You cannot just say that without a fucking seriously well-formed argument behind it.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.html

Tripulaci0n wrote:

I think the problem is that we evolved in small tribes and now we have cities with millions of (relatively unrelated) people.

Let alone entire countries where farmers need to worry about starving homeless people in the cities. Or angry foreigners with a lot of oil.

I'm not saying there's nothing to be done, not by a long shot; but the scope of what has to change, on a global scale, really is almost too much to comprehend. It's not something that can be summed up in a two line campaign slogan. Yet a lot of things must change at once for real, effective, long term success.

My .02

What? What needs to change? What's broken? I have a job. I don't have to worry about starving. I have hundreds of television channels to choose from. Millions of internet sites to peruse. I have a car that allows me to travel, and a mass transit system that does the same (let alone my own two feet!).

Why are people always trying to change shit that doesn't need changing? Yeah, I'm talking about my own life, and my own country, but the rest of the world is getting here too (unless you live in an African dictatorship). People whine too fucking much. Even our unemployed and unemployable have nothing to worry about besides who is getting sent home on American Idol. People aren't starving in the streets or dying from a lack of services.

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Jay wrote:

Greed? How about fairness? How about I keep what I earn? Why is it noble for me to work harder than the man next to me but receive an equal reward? Motivate me to continue working harder than him. Motivate me to work even at a fraction of what he is doing if it means that I still receive the same reward. Solve that, and you can have your utopia. Good luck.

there are actual people on earth, galt, that are not motivated by this crap, believe it or not. for some there are things worth considering which fall outside your primitive "food, reproduction, domination over the likes of me" mindset. what you and many others do not get - incapable of getting it seems or simply afraid to admit - is that communism actually worked for some people. you know, real people, not talking animals like yourself. where the free and the brave are still indulging the animals hoping that maybe one day you stop hanging from the trees and start behaving like actual sentient beings, bolsheviks went in other direction - they placed the animals within orderly environments and waited hoping for them to change. granted, that was just about as stupid as you feeding the fucking beast even though it doesn't change it one bit, but bolsheviks were actually successful with some of their subjects. you of course have never seen such a person because the people i'm talking about didn't run when "freedom and democracy" ensued in soviet union, but they are there - they remained and even now if anyone is still trying to keep this god forsaken country going it's those people.

so, do us all a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by posting this crap why don't you.

lol USSR did so well they became shittier year by year while western europe got a lot better. Shahster it was so great that there werent millions of eastern euros trying to flee amirite.

Those were just the selfish bastards, duh.

so why did ussr fail again if communism is so awesome. oh let me guess its the free and the brave's fault.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

What? What needs to change? What's broken? I have a job. I don't have to worry about starving. I have hundreds of television channels to choose from. Millions of internet sites to peruse. I have a car that allows me to travel, and a mass transit system that does the same (let alone my own two feet!).

Why are people always trying to change shit that doesn't need changing? Yeah, I'm talking about my own life, and my own country, but the rest of the world is getting here too (unless you live in an African dictatorship). People whine too fucking much. Even our unemployed and unemployable have nothing to worry about besides who is getting sent home on American Idol. People aren't starving in the streets or dying from a lack of services.

Right, so while you should really be paying an extra U$60k a year in taxes just to keep on top of current govt spending, as long as your belly is full and you have batteries for your gameboy you don't care?

When baby boomers really start retiring and hoovering up the benefits they haven't funded its going to be a lot worse.

I see a problem here, for example:

Oh, there's a problem with government spending, but I doubt he was talking about that. It seemed like youthful let's change the world idealism.