BF2S Forums 11 11 11

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

So why do you have to carry ID wherever you go?

It's called the Geneva Convention.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

today while on my way to work i saw this fence with "curt cobain lives!!!!1!1one!!!1!eleven!!!1" written on it (in russian). should i now consider the possibility that he may actually be alive?

So what is your position? That the natural state of man is to be enslaved by a totalitarian state, and then be forced to erect statues to its diminutive tyrants everywhere possible, in order that said tyrants might compensate for something?

Pochsy there have pretty much answered for me, though i'd make a small correction:

Pochsy wrote:

'Freedom' is a pretty broad term. In Hobbesian thought the natural state of man is indeed total 'freedom', but he is also subject to pain, suffering, and death at the hands of all the other 'free' people. Nothing about democracy orderly human society is natural. It is entirely artificial, and can even be seen as a limit to freedom in order to guarantee the means to life. You trade in absolute freedom for assured limited freedoms.

freedom is the natural state of wild beast - g@lt would be a good example of one. humans, imho, should strive to be something more. thus, since human societies and traditions are so different, it takes different kinds of government to impose order on them, and if takes totalitarian regime - so be it.

p.s. we have completely hijacked this thread.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So what is your position? That the natural state of man is to be enslaved by a totalitarian state, and then be forced to erect statues to its diminutive tyrants everywhere possible, in order that said tyrants might compensate for something?

Pochsy there have pretty much answered for me, though i'd make a small correction:

Pochsy wrote:

'Freedom' is a pretty broad term. In Hobbesian thought the natural state of man is indeed total 'freedom', but he is also subject to pain, suffering, and death at the hands of all the other 'free' people. Nothing about democracy orderly human society is natural. It is entirely artificial, and can even be seen as a limit to freedom in order to guarantee the means to life. You trade in absolute freedom for assured limited freedoms.

freedom is the natural state of wild beast - g@lt would be a good example of one. humans, imho, should strive to be something more. thus, since human societies and traditions are so different, it takes different kinds of government to impose order on them, and if takes totalitarian regime - so be it.

p.s. we have completely hijacked this thread.

freedom =/= anarchy.

That is certainly not what was intended by any of the thinkers of the 18th century when they were writing of liberty and framing governments to meet that line of thinking. It's certainly not what is meant when people work to ensure others have the freedom to live as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the freedoms of others. When government's sole purpose is to remove freedom, rather than to ensure freedom, its purpose is no longer valid.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

freedom =/= anarchy.

for the talking animals comprising most of modern humanity it is.

Only if you live solely in extremes. For the talking animals comprising most of modern humanity, that isn't the case.

Shahter wrote:

That is certainly not what was intended by any of the thinkers of the 18th century when they were writing of liberty and framing governments to meet that line of thinking. It's certainly not what is meant when people work to ensure others have the freedom to live as they see fit, so long as they do not interfere with the freedoms of others. When government's sole purpose is to remove freedom, rather than to ensure freedom, its purpose is no longer valid.

i'm not ten, FEOS, stop bullshitting me. there's no government which "sole purpose is to remove freedom", and you know it. order comes first, that's what governments are there for. if order is in conflict with anyone's notion of "freedom" - too bad, go live on a desert island.

Totalitarian governments exist to impose order for the benefit of the state. They do that by removing freedom. Ergo, their sole purpose is to remove the peoples' freedom. I'm not bullshitting you. Sometimes ripping the band-aid off can be painful, I suppose.

FEOS wrote:

Oh, that's right. The only person who can possibly have an opinion about that is you, as you've lived there and experienced every possible variation of totalitarianism in the world. Because nobody else has ever lived anywhere totalitarianism has existed, had an opinion about it, and shared their experiences about it via the written word with the rest of the world, giving a broader perspective than your single viewpoint, which clearly encompasses the totality of everything that is "horrible totalitarian governments" worldwide.

FEOS wrote:

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Oh, that's right. The only person who can possibly have an opinion about that is you, as you've lived there and experienced every possible variation of totalitarianism in the world. Because nobody else has ever lived anywhere totalitarianism has existed, had an opinion about it, and shared their experiences about it via the written word with the rest of the world, giving a broader perspective than your single viewpoint, which clearly encompasses the totality of everything that is "horrible totalitarian governments" worldwide.

opinion is fine. opinion is no problem. telling a person, who actually experienced stuff you only read about in a book, about "sole purpose" of that stuff - that's pretty bold of you, man, but also very stupid.

Who said I was talking about Russia?

Seems you're kind of defensive of the Motherland...